Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
00:11:05 · Lenny Rachitsky
[00:11:05] S0: There's kind of an associated concept you talk about, which is around connecting before correcting, which reminds me of radical candor a little bit of just this idea of challenge directly but care deeply. Talk a bit about this concept of connecting before correcting.
00:11:19 · Becky Kennedy
[00:11:19] S1: Yeah. Well, I'll use kind of... let's take it out of parenting and work because I think it really shows the importance of connecting in all of our lives. So all of us say about our kids, "My kid doesn't listen. My kid doesn't listen to me." Right? But if you picture me on the couch and let's say my... I have three kids, they're all sleeping now and I'm finally settling in for now the two minutes I have before I pass out because I'm tired. And let's say my husband comes out and just says, "Becky, we have to do our taxes." And you're watching the scene and you see me say, "Whoa, I just sat down to read a book." And he goes, "You don't listen to me. You have a listening problem and if you don't do the taxes with me right now, I'm taking away your dessert for a week." Okay? Lenny, I'm pretty sure no one would tell me I have a listening problem. They probably say, I have a husband problem if that happened. Right? They'd be like, "Wow. You're..." But we do that to our kids and we do that at work all the time. Now, let's say the same situation happened and he said, "Whoa, I realize didn't tell you this. We have to get our taxes done tonight. You look like you're just settling in to that book. Oh, can we get on top of this together? I know we're on the same team. Can we figure this out?" The chances that I will do taxes just skyrocketed. Right? Why? Because he sees me in my reality as a full human being, not just as an object in his world to get something done. He kind of joins my world where I'm embedded in my own priorities and by doing that forms a bridge, that's what connection is. So I can kind of walk back over to his world with him to do something that's a priority in his world. So connection, it first all just feels good anyway, but it's not such a kind of soft topic. Connection is what forms a bridge between two people so they can act together in the same interest. And so whether you're thinking about your kid not listening or thinking about things at work, coming back to connection is really the foundation for both cooperation and at work, even productivity.
00:13:21 · Lenny Rachitsky
[00:13:21] S0: I love the way you phrased it at the beginning, that the way you just said it, I'm like, "Oh wow, I get why someone would start." To listen to help people actually do this in day-to-day, what's the way to approach the way you phrase beginning that connection conversation?
00:13:38 · Becky Kennedy
[00:13:38] S1: The truth is the first step is a mindset. And I know that sounds annoying because it's like, "Just tell me what to do." And anyone who knows me knows, I love telling people script ideas, but we feel people's intention, not just their intervention. So the same intervention will be felt completely different based on our mindset. So if I'm going into a conversation with you, Lenny, and let's say, I don't know, I want you to do something for me. I'd like you to come water my non-existent plants. Okay? And I'm like, I'm going to connect to Lenny first. First I'm going to say, "Oh, how's it going? Tell me this thing about your life." And you just know that is in and of itself a transaction to get you to do the thing I want you to do. Not only is it not going to quote "Work," it's going to feel like dirty to you. You're going to feel it and it's going to feel off. So the mindset we need to be in, which is so hard, and I talk a good game, but it's hard for me too. Okay? Is trying to get into a kind of without an agenda mindset, even if it's for 30 seconds with someone. Being present with someone without an agenda is increasingly hard to do, but that is what connection is about. No one wants something of me. They just kind of see me or they're recognizing something I'm doing or they kind of plop down on the couch next to me. And so what could that look like with your kid? It's often very, very simple things. Okay? And it's going to feel really small, especially anyone who works a lot where we get so addicted to accomplishing and dopamine. It's sitting next to your kid and putting your hand on their back, literally, for longer than feels natural. It's saying to your kid, "I'm happy to see you." And that's it. Such a nice thing to say when your kid comes home from school or you come home for work or first thing in the morning. It's watching your kid play and describing what they're doing instead of peppering them with questions, "Oh, you're making a tall tower." Versus, "Oh my goodness, is that a fire station? Oh my goodness, we can make the best fire station in the world." And I hear myself say that because I can say that, but it's not connection actually.
00:15:37 · Becky Kennedy, Lenny Rachitsky
At work, it's probably saying, "Hey, tell me a little bit about your long weekend." And not kind of counting down the seconds for them to finish so you can tell them what to start on this week, but kind of giving yourself permission to say, "Can I actually just kind of drop down into that moment?" Right? And so I think it's the mindset and then it's actually something that doesn't have an agenda, that's just about seeing someone, noticing someone in a really, really small way. [00:16:04] S0: I love this idea of just the mindset. And that's such a powerful reframe of this is don't think about what are the correct words to say. It's just actually just feel, "Okay, I just want to connect with you first for 30 seconds."
00:16:04 · Lenny Rachitsky, Becky Kennedy
[00:16:04] S0: I love this idea of just the mindset. And that's such a powerful reframe of this is don't think about what are the correct words to say. It's just actually just feel, "Okay, I just want to connect with you first for 30 seconds." [00:16:15] S1: Yeah. And I want to reveal something about myself. Right? So one of the things I think about is that efficiency and relationship building are often in opposition. We're doing one or the other. And one of the things I've learned the very, very hard way about myself, especially since I've been working, the way I've been working the last couple of years, is my efficiency is kind of reinforced at work. Right? And a lot of us who can be very efficient and get things done, we can have a little morality about it. We listen to someone's story, we're like, "Come on, get to the point." When that person in our life is like, "The whole point is that I want to tell you the whole story." And I think if anyone's listening and thinking, "Yeah, I'm kind of an efficiency oriented person, dropping into relationship mode takes real intention." And it's hard, especially if a big part of your life, the efficiency is reinforced. So if it feels awkward and slow. And I always call it with my kids, my best time just feels low stim. It just feels so low stim. I'm like, "Is this right? Am I doing this right?" That's probably a sign I am because not much is happening and I'm not being efficient with my time. I'm just in kind of relationship building mode.