Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
00:08:57 · Becky Kennedy
[00:08:57] S1: Yeah. I think repair is kind of the number one relationship strategy we have. And the thing that keeps us from repairing, which really is the idea of going back to a person after a moment we didn't feel proud of, taking responsibility for our part, maybe acknowledging the impact it had on them and talking about what you would do differently the next time, is actually this very false idea that there's a goal to be perfect. Right? And in our family, we say something, we actually now say it at work, "Perfect is creepy." I just think it encapsulates... You don't even want to be perfect. It's actually very creepy. Only non-humans can ever be perfect. And what defines kind of the human condition is that we want to do well and we mess up over and over again. And one of the things I remember learning in clinical psych grad school was that the thing that really differentiated secure attachment, which is the nature of a relationship you really want to have with your kid is the presence of repair. And I remember the professor continuing to talk and I was kind of stopped in my tracks thinking, "What? Oh, so secure attachment isn't defined by getting it right all the time? Secure attachment is just defined by, we're all going to mess up, but secure attachment has an adult who's willing to repair?" That felt very hopeful to me because it felt like something I could realistically get good at. And over and over, whether it's with your kid, when you say to them, "Hey, sorry I yelled." Some version of, "I had a stressful day at work. That wasn't your fault and I'm working on staying calmer even when I'm upset." Or we say to someone, I don't know, on our team, "Hey, earlier in the meeting, I totally cut you off. I used a really harsh tone. Honestly, I did disagree with what you're saying, but it's no excuse for me to talk to you the way I did. Stuff was going on before the meeting. I'm sorry. I'm going to work on that." There's just nothing to reestablish trust and connection like repair. And when trust and connection are reestablished, then whether it's your kid or someone at work, they cooperate better, you don't get into conversations that are kind of run on conversations that are really an act of defensiveness and you can just get a lot more done.
00:11:05 · Lenny Rachitsky
[00:11:05] S0: There's kind of an associated concept you talk about, which is around connecting before correcting, which reminds me of radical candor a little bit of just this idea of challenge directly but care deeply. Talk a bit about this concept of connecting before correcting.
00:11:19 · Becky Kennedy
[00:11:19] S1: Yeah. Well, I'll use kind of... let's take it out of parenting and work because I think it really shows the importance of connecting in all of our lives. So all of us say about our kids, "My kid doesn't listen. My kid doesn't listen to me." Right? But if you picture me on the couch and let's say my... I have three kids, they're all sleeping now and I'm finally settling in for now the two minutes I have before I pass out because I'm tired. And let's say my husband comes out and just says, "Becky, we have to do our taxes." And you're watching the scene and you see me say, "Whoa, I just sat down to read a book." And he goes, "You don't listen to me. You have a listening problem and if you don't do the taxes with me right now, I'm taking away your dessert for a week." Okay? Lenny, I'm pretty sure no one would tell me I have a listening problem. They probably say, I have a husband problem if that happened. Right? They'd be like, "Wow. You're..." But we do that to our kids and we do that at work all the time. Now, let's say the same situation happened and he said, "Whoa, I realize didn't tell you this. We have to get our taxes done tonight. You look like you're just settling in to that book. Oh, can we get on top of this together? I know we're on the same team. Can we figure this out?" The chances that I will do taxes just skyrocketed. Right? Why? Because he sees me in my reality as a full human being, not just as an object in his world to get something done. He kind of joins my world where I'm embedded in my own priorities and by doing that forms a bridge, that's what connection is. So I can kind of walk back over to his world with him to do something that's a priority in his world. So connection, it first all just feels good anyway, but it's not such a kind of soft topic. Connection is what forms a bridge between two people so they can act together in the same interest. And so whether you're thinking about your kid not listening or thinking about things at work, coming back to connection is really the foundation for both cooperation and at work, even productivity.
00:13:21 · Lenny Rachitsky
[00:13:21] S0: I love the way you phrased it at the beginning, that the way you just said it, I'm like, "Oh wow, I get why someone would start." To listen to help people actually do this in day-to-day, what's the way to approach the way you phrase beginning that connection conversation?
00:13:38 · Becky Kennedy
[00:13:38] S1: The truth is the first step is a mindset. And I know that sounds annoying because it's like, "Just tell me what to do." And anyone who knows me knows, I love telling people script ideas, but we feel people's intention, not just their intervention. So the same intervention will be felt completely different based on our mindset. So if I'm going into a conversation with you, Lenny, and let's say, I don't know, I want you to do something for me. I'd like you to come water my non-existent plants. Okay? And I'm like, I'm going to connect to Lenny first. First I'm going to say, "Oh, how's it going? Tell me this thing about your life." And you just know that is in and of itself a transaction to get you to do the thing I want you to do. Not only is it not going to quote "Work," it's going to feel like dirty to you. You're going to feel it and it's going to feel off. So the mindset we need to be in, which is so hard, and I talk a good game, but it's hard for me too. Okay? Is trying to get into a kind of without an agenda mindset, even if it's for 30 seconds with someone. Being present with someone without an agenda is increasingly hard to do, but that is what connection is about. No one wants something of me. They just kind of see me or they're recognizing something I'm doing or they kind of plop down on the couch next to me. And so what could that look like with your kid? It's often very, very simple things. Okay? And it's going to feel really small, especially anyone who works a lot where we get so addicted to accomplishing and dopamine. It's sitting next to your kid and putting your hand on their back, literally, for longer than feels natural. It's saying to your kid, "I'm happy to see you." And that's it. Such a nice thing to say when your kid comes home from school or you come home for work or first thing in the morning. It's watching your kid play and describing what they're doing instead of peppering them with questions, "Oh, you're making a tall tower." Versus, "Oh my goodness, is that a fire station? Oh my goodness, we can make the best fire station in the world." And I hear myself say that because I can say that, but it's not connection actually.
00:15:37 · Becky Kennedy, Lenny Rachitsky
At work, it's probably saying, "Hey, tell me a little bit about your long weekend." And not kind of counting down the seconds for them to finish so you can tell them what to start on this week, but kind of giving yourself permission to say, "Can I actually just kind of drop down into that moment?" Right? And so I think it's the mindset and then it's actually something that doesn't have an agenda, that's just about seeing someone, noticing someone in a really, really small way. [00:16:04] S0: I love this idea of just the mindset. And that's such a powerful reframe of this is don't think about what are the correct words to say. It's just actually just feel, "Okay, I just want to connect with you first for 30 seconds."