Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
01:01:11 · Becky Kennedy
[01:01:11] S1: I think there's so many parallels. One of the reasons I love talking about childhood is because that's when our brain is wiring. It's when we form the blueprint, or my friend Maile calls it the factory settings, for the rest of our kids' lives. That's the ultimate, is to wire them with the default that works for them. But actually you can think about work relationships the same way, where of course people come, their brain's already wired, they're older, or somewhat. But if you think about it as a building, your first number of months with someone is, you're building the foundation for the whole building, which is the relationship you're going to have. And the earlier you're just optimizing for comfort and happiness, the more fragile your building's going to be. And you're right. Then you get to six months and you're like, "Oh, this person isn't doing so well. I'm going to give them feedback." But in their mind, they're thinking, "I've never gotten a piece of constructively critical feedback since I've been here. So I thought the nature of my relationship in this workplace was one of butterflies and rainbows all the time." That doesn't mean Day One I think you should sit someone down and say like, "Here's everything you're doing wrong." They're like, "I just started my job." There's obviously reasonableness. But yes, when we're thinking about a resilient work culture, we want people who can say, "This is hard and I can do hard things," not, "This is hard, so someone must be at fault and it should be easier." And I don't know anyone who would argue for the second culture. So I think we should ask ourselves, "Well, what am I doing in the nature of my conversations with people that help me build toward that? I'll make it really concrete, because I think so much of dealing with anxiety and struggle, not all of it, but I like a good formula, is this combination of, "I believe you and I believe in you." I think one of the ways we've majorly misunderstood anxiety, whether at any age, is we're doing the I believe you part, but we've forgotten the I believe in you part, and they're both, again, really necessary together, which might sound like this. "Look, I believe you. This is a hard project. You're totally right. And you've never done something like this before.
01:03:14 · Becky Kennedy
It makes sense," that's such a good phrase, "It makes sense you're nervous about it." Or something I say to my kids that I should say more at work. "I'd be nervous if you weren't nervous. You have a big task. I'd be nervous if you weren't nervous. Of course you're nervous. That makes total sense. I'd feel the same way. And the reason we think you can take on this project is because we know you can figure this out. By the way, I'm here to answer questions and help you along the way, but I just want to make sure you hear that from me. Yes, this is hard and I also know you can work through this. And the way you're going to feel at the end, you're going to feel so proud of yourself. And I don't want to take away the project from you, because I kind of think I'm taking away that feeling. And that's going to be the feeling that propels you to do all the other amazing things you want to do here. And let's work toward that." And that's actually, Lenny, something I used to say to my kids when they were your kids' age. I just distinctly remember this time one of my kids was whining about this puzzle, and he's like, "Do it for me. Finish it for me. You have to do it." And of course, the easiest thing to shut down the tantrum is like, "Fine, here's how you do it." But it was the day I had a little more bandwidth. And I heard myself sing something that, I don't know, it felt like healing to me, too. Honestly, I said, "Look, you're right, this is a hard puzzle. It makes sense you're frustrated. All of us feel frustrated when we want to do something and haven't figured it out yet. You're feeling this moment right. Take a break, take a breath, but I want to tell you why I'm not going to do this for you. There's no better feeling in the world than watching yourself work on something and make progress on something and maybe even complete something that you originally didn't think you could do. There's literally no better feeling than that, and I will not take that feeling away from you." And I think in the workplace, and definitely in parenting, we should be mindful of how often we take feelings of capability away from our kid. And I take that very seriously, because I feel very passionate about building a world where kids become adults who feel capable. And I think we can do that in these small moments more often.
01:05:20 · Lenny Rachitsky
[01:05:20] S0: As you share these stories and examples, I'm just like, "I wish I had Dr Becky in my ear constantly giving me advice as I'm doing this stuff." And we'll talk about how people sort of can get that. But I'm actually really happy you talked about this I believe you Lesson. I was going to bring it up. That was right next on my notes. Because I've used it with my wife, actually, and it is so good and so effective. And this is why I love your advice is that it works not just for kids, it works for adults. Just like, "I believe you. I believe you feel this, even though I don't know why and I wouldn't feel that way, but just I believe you." I like this, this makes sense piece. I haven't thought about that. And then the I believe in you, that's interesting because I did talk about, the way I remember phrasing this, this was a moment I really remember just like, "You're smart, you'll figure this out." And then she just went back to me and she's like, "Wait. What did you just do there?" That felt really good.
01:06:09 · Becky Kennedy
[01:06:09] S1: Well, if you think about, and I'm very visual, so if you think about someone struggling, picture them in a hole, not an abyss, just like a little hole, okay? And we're a relational species, at least we'll see what happens with AI, but for now we're a relational species, okay? And so when we're really struggling, inherently, the reason why we're struggling is we're in a hole and we can't see the way out of it. If we were in a hole and could see the way out, we wouldn't struggle. So the only reason something feels so hard is because you're in a hole without visibility. So what do you need as a relational species? You need someone you trust to have one foot in the hole with you. You do. That's the I believe you part. So it might be saying to your kid, and those words are so powerful. I think deep down, Lenny, that's literally what we're all looking for as humans is just to be believed. "I believe you. You really don't want to go to soccer practice. You're no longer starting on the team. The first soccer practice after you lose your starting spot sucks, totally sucks. I believe you." But if you think about them in that hole, they need you to have one foot out of the hole. They need one foot in, but they need one foot out. Because if we can't see a more capable version of our kid than they can access in that moment, we've collapsed into the hole with them. And so the I believe you is, I believe in you would be, "Look, you're going to go to practice today. You are. I'll just be honest. It's not going to be fun. You're not going to want to be there the whole time. You're going to feel embarrassed. You're going to hate watching them run plays with you on the sideline, and you're going to come home having survived. I'm going to be there for a hug. I'm going to let you know I'm proud of you. Maybe I'm proudest of you that moment even more than when you scored the goal last game, because that's the hard stuff that's going to help you in life and we're going to get through it together." And so I think for anyone listening, I find what's really powerful with anything is thinking, what end of the spectrum am I on? Because it always gives me insight into where I can grow. Is the I believe you part easier for me or is the I believe in you part easier for me? And there's no morality. Just knowing where you are is helpful.
01:08:08 · Becky Kennedy, Lenny Rachitsky
Do I like to say to people, "Come on, it's no big deal. You can do it." Okay, that's the I believe in you. Ooh, I wonder if I'd be more effective if I focus on the first, I believe you. Or do I lead as a parent, as a leader with, I believe you, but ooh, do I sometimes go into the hole with someone? Oh, okay. It's the other part I'm going to play around with. And I think that gives us all something to action on. [01:08:29] S0: This is such good advice. I got tingles as you were describing what you were telling your kid. If there's anything you take away from this conversation, this is useful with kids, with partners, I think in work too, just this idea of I believe you and that makes sense. And then somehow making it clear that I believe in you. [01:08:49] S1: Yes. See a more capable version of them than they can see in the moment. Doing those two things at once, it's magic. I talk a good game. It's hard for me too. Again, these things are hard in practice, but at least, and I know you're like this too, it's helpful to have a framework to come back to. [01:09:02] S0: And just these words are s- [01:09:00] S1: You're like this too. It's helpful to have a framework to come back to.
01:09:00 · Becky Kennedy, Lenny Rachitsky
[01:09:00] S1: You're like this too. It's helpful to have a framework to come back to. [01:09:02] S0: Just these words are so... And you don't have to say them exactly, but these specific ways of phrasing is actually really great. Okay. Let's come back to how people can get your advice constantly. So a lot of people see your advice on TikTok and Instagram, just kind of on Twitter and all these places, just like, "Oh, there's Dr. Becky giving me some awesome advice." Not a lot of people know you have an epic business and product and community. Talk about that, just what you've built there, what it is, what people should know.