Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
00:41:24 · Becky Kennedy
[00:41:24] S1: Yeah. And so, I think related to being a sturdy leader, to make it more concrete, there's two jobs we have as a parent. I think they're the same two jobs we have as any sturdy leader in any environment. And that's setting boundaries, which are limits we set, certain decisions we make. Boundaries often relate to your position of authority, where you have some long-term goal in mind that someone else in the system just isn't as aware of, or a two-year-old isn't as capable of holding onto, which is why you're in the position of making a decision. So, that's the boundaries. And the other side is, validating kids' or someone else's experience, while not being taken over by it. And I think we've moved so far in this direction of validating kids' experience, and I'll go on record and saying, validating kids' feelings is an incomplete parenting approach. That is half of our job, but it doesn't work if we're not doing the other half, which is setting boundaries, which is the skill I feel best about teaching people, because I think it's what we're often lacking. So, my definition of boundaries, I do like because it's immediately usable and testable. Boundaries are what you tell someone else you will do, and it requires the other person to do nothing. Too often I hear people say, My kid doesn't respect my boundaries. My colleague doesn't respect my boundaries. And with all due respect, I often think, I think you have an incorrect definition of boundaries. I think you're probably making a request, which by the way, we do a lot. There's nothing wrong with requests, but it's not a boundary. Because if you're setting what you call a boundary and you're really making a request, you're giving all of your power away to the other person, because you're saying the success of this important moment depends on my two-year-old. What? I'm not going to give my power to my two-year-old. And I always tell parents, I would bet on you any day over your kid, and it's not because I don't like your kid. I do like your kid. I just believe in you more. And so a good example of this, let's say, is, I have a kid, like I was describing before, who's not a people pleaser.
00:43:22 · Becky Kennedy
And so, I live in New York City, we live in a building with a lot of elevator buttons, where this kid, when he was younger, if he was left to his own devices, which had happened, he would press every elevator button, every one. And with my other kids, one of them especially, I probably would've been able to make a request like, Hey, when we go on the elevator later, it's really important not to press all the buttons. Other people wait for this elevator, it's rude, whatever it is. That's not a boundary. Because I could say, Did I tell my kid what I will do? No. Does it require my kid to do nothing? No. A boundary, would be saying, when we go into the elevator, I'm going to stand between you and the button, sweetie, because I'm not going to let you press the buttons, because other people are waiting. And if you have a kid like my kid, they're going to lunge for it anyway. And then I would block my kid, because I'm ready and I've done a workout, my muscles are ready. I'm not going to let you do that. Now, my kid might get upset, which allows me to do the other part of my jobs. Oh, I know you wish you could press those buttons or maybe just look kindly toward him and not say anything, but I'm going to still hold my boundary. And in this example, I think one of the places we get into trouble as a parent, is we say, Don't press the buttons. If you press the buttons, no dessert tonight, or whatever, we threaten. But all of that is a way of completely undermining our authority, because I'm giving all of my power to my kid. I'm letting myself get frustrated. Now, I'm taking away dessert, and the honest truth, if we want to be honest about it, is at night, I'm going to give my kids sorbet anyway and then make up something how sorbet isn't dessert, because it has fruit, all because I just didn't set a boundary in the first place. And I think over and over, in parenting, maybe at work too, we're asking our kid to do our job for us, because we just don't want to deal with the emotional fallout, but that's what I call job confusion and makes everyone frustrated.
00:45:16 · Lenny Rachitsky
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00:46:55 · Becky Kennedy
[00:46:55] S1: Well, boundaries are something I will do when they require my kid to do nothing, we want to try. Look, we have to get in the car and whatever I try. I try a game, I try a song. And then again, the intention matters. The reason I'm going to carry my kid to the car is actually, I don't want to let myself then be late and then yell at my kid and be frustrated. I'm doing it because I like my kid, and I'm on the same team as them. So then I might say, "Look. It looks like it's hard for you to get to the car. I don't really want to do this, but I don't know. I'm going to turn around, I'm going to take a deep breath. And if by the time I turn around, you're still here, I'm going to pick you up. I'm going to carry you to the car. And even if you're crying and kicking and screaming, I'm still going to do that, sweetie. I know sometimes it's hard to leave the house. We do have to leave. Here comes my deep breath." Now, what's really important, I don't want to understate, is I think somewhere in us we think, "I'm going to do that, and then I'm going to be rewarded by my kid for my good parenting. I'm going to turn around and you're going to be like, 'I'm ready now, Dad.'" That might happen in some households, but it actually won't reliably happen until you've actually set boundaries over and over, where it's not about taking advantage of you. They're just trying to learn the rules of the game. And so then I would pick up my kid. And by the way, depending on your kid's temperament, two out of the three of my kids would scream and cry. And then we tell ourselves, "Oh, I'm not a good parent. I messed that up." No. Again, a pilot is going to make a decision in certain key moments, not based on consensus. Let's say I'm flying to LA, and it's really turbulent, and the pilot says they have to make an emergency landing, and everyone's complaining, and they're like, "What? It can't be that big of a deal. I don't know if that's a light. I have a big meeting in LA." Can you imagine if the pilot was like, "Oh, Becky and Lenny are really upset about this. You know what, guys? Forget it. Forget it. Forget the emergency landing." What? Even if we were upset, we feel deeply, deeply safe that our leader is doing something they believe is right with the information they have available.
00:48:58 · Becky Kennedy, Lenny Rachitsky
So even if I'm complaining when I get off the plane in Kansas, wherever I'm landing midway, I also in the back of my head am so grateful. And so I just want parents to know, when you set a true boundary, especially if it's new, your kid will tantrum and protest. But if you actually see that as a sign that you're successfully setting a boundary, instead of as a sign you did something wrong, your relationship with a tantrum changes. You're almost oddly sickly grateful for a sign that you set a boundary. And you're like, "Oh, this is actually..." I always say to myself, "This is going according to plan." And it makes the moment so much easier. [00:49:33] S0: This advice you give about being the leader is really important, and I could see how it connects deeply, too, in the work environment. I'm curious just if there's more advice there. So the idea that I've been hearing is just, people want you to be their leader, both as a kid and in the work environment. They don't want you to be like, "Okay, what does everyone think? Let's vote." Talk about just the insight there.
00:49:51 · Becky Kennedy
[00:49:51] S1: Yeah. First of all, I think a lot of things, two things are true. There's definitely a time for consensus. There's a time for getting 100%. That's a really important part of leadership, too. But inherently, you're in a position of leadership because you have experience other people don't have, you have insight, you have judgment. You might just very literally have access to company information and data that other people don't have. You're not all working from the same set of information. So, there's definitely a time for consensus building, but at least in parenting, I think we've over corrected. I need to collect more data from the working world if we've over corrected. I think it feels really good for people to hear some version of, "I took in everything you said, your voices matter, and I want to share a decision I've made with all the information I have. It might not make sense to all of you at the time. You can come talk to me separately. And I have conviction that this is the next thing we're going to experiment with," whatever the decision is." I said this word earlier, and it's another word I say that maybe other people don't say. I'm always drawn to people I can locate. That's the word. I can locate you. I know what you feel. I know your POV. I personally love people I can locate even if I really disagree with them more than being around people who seem to mirror what I'm saying. I've actually learned a lot in a working environment that's what I need because I have a lot of strong ideas. So I love people who push back and have a POV. And I think especially at work when there's so much going on, it could be so stressful, having a leader you can locate, which means I have a POV to be able to say, "This might not be what you want. I believe this is the best decision, and I believe we're a strong enough team to work toward that." I think that's very, very holding, not all the time, but in more situations than we might realize.