Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
00:32:17 · Becky Kennedy
[00:32:17] S1: Well, okay. So, let's think about what the potty stuff is about for kids. When our kids are younger, they control two things in their entire life. What goes into their body and what comes out of their body? That's all. No, obviously, hopefully we let them pick their clothes here and there, but thematically... By the way, and they shouldn't be in charge of a ton more categories because they're two, right? But it's why those two areas can become so heated for families because we get so stressed. And when kids, especially if you don't have a people pleaser, okay? When kids even smell, my parent is stepping into one of the only two domains that are mine, holy moly, will they do nutty things to push you back. And so, what's the general lesson, the human lesson is, what is it like for someone to have not that many areas of life that they're in control of? Number one, just think about that. Think about the first 10 minutes of your kids' day. We wake them up. We tell them what the weather is. We tell them, No, you can't wear that. We tell them what's for breakfast. We tell them their shirt's on the wrong way. If my husband woke me up that way, I would be in a bad mood the rest of the day. Okay? And I'd probably be looking for a million different areas to just grasp control of as a way of screaming to the world like, I am my own person. Right? And so, if we think about that in the workplace, well, first of all, temperamentally, there are a subset of people, I call these the resilient rebels. They present as strong-willed, defiant kids, whose... I think we all walk around with the core fear that we end up acting out. Their core fear is the loss of control. They are very, very attuned to people kind of stepping into their domain, and if they smell it, they resist. Well, we have those as adults too. It's tricky to collaborate with them. And again, we need to have an expectation, but we might see that as, why do I ask someone to switch a meeting time? And it feels like I took a knife to their heart, the way they react, right? Well, that theme might be coming up and maybe we can go one level deeper and say, Is this someone who in general... I'm making this up, but, oh, someone got promoted before they did on their team, they just had a change in manager, they just had their vacation denied, whatever it was. Oh, is that actually what we're talking about?
00:34:34 · Becky Kennedy, Lenny Rachitsky
And it's manifesting as this difficulty changing meaning time, but actually there's other themes of control and independence at play. [00:34:42] S0: As maybe a lesson here is, clarifying, here's what you own on this team, on this project, here's things that you're going to drive, here's where I'm going to be really involved. Is that maybe a takeaway? [00:34:53] S1: I think that is definitely a takeaway. I also just love naming your intention, that's always really helpful. Hey, I want to look over this project together, because I want to get ahead of some things and I think that's actually going to help you do the most independent work. That's why I want to go through it in such detail. When you name the intention very, very clearly for someone, they're much more likely to interpret your behavior through the intention you just named, because your intention isn't to control them or make them feel small. But if that's also something they have a predilection for, it's even more important for those people to do the naming of the intention up front. [00:35:30] S0: And there's also just a whole micromanaging, I don't know, element to this. So, this is why people in part hate micromanagement. Like, I want to be in control of something, why get out of this? [00:35:39] S1: Yeah, which is a dance. Exactly.
00:35:39 · Becky Kennedy, Lenny Rachitsky
[00:35:39] S1: Yeah, which is a dance. Exactly. [00:35:41] S0: Yeah. Okay. Something else that you teach, that I find really helpful, is this idea of sturdy, becoming a sturdy parent, learning to be sturdy. That feels very related to being a good leader, just like learning how to deal with challenges. Talk about that from the kids' context and then how it might be useful in work.
00:35:59 · Becky Kennedy
[00:35:59] S1: Yeah, I think that's the essence of what Good Inside does. We help parents become sturdy leaders, so they can raise sturdy, confident kids. And when I started this, I'd use that word a lot. People would say to me, I've never heard anyone use that word. I know what it means. But I think about language too, and I like language that helps me conjure up an image or a feeling. It takes it out of my brain and I think the word sturdy, if you picture someone in your life, even if you haven't thought about them, who's the sturdy person I know? I bet you can kind of locate them, you see them, and there's a feeling you have around them. And I think the best leaders we have are sturdy. And so, I'll start it with a metaphor, because I actually think that brings it to life. And I think this is as true in parenting and in the workplace. So, picture being a passenger on a flight. It's really turbulent and you start screaming and everyone starts screaming, okay? So, everyone's panicked in the flight and then you hear the announcement from the pilot and I think there's three types of announcements you can have. The third one's going to be the sturdy one, the first two, not as much. So the first one is some version of, What are you freaking out about? Stop screaming. You're making this flight awful for everyone and you're distracting me and stop making a big deal out of nothing. And that's kind of when we say those words to a kid, Stop freaking out. You're ruining this for everyone. But the truth is, if you think about yourself on a flight and the pilot says that, you don't feel calmer. Number one, you're worried they don't notice the turbulence. Number two, you're a little disturbed that it just takes your screaming to make the pilot kind of lose it at you, right? And that actually makes you feel less safe. And so, that's like in a meeting where people, I don't know, voice something that doesn't feel good and the leader essentially is like, Stop complaining. That's not sturdy. The second version is also not sturdy. And I think we've a little bit, at least in parenting, over corrected to this, which is a pilot saying like, I hear you screaming. You know what? I'm opening the cockpit door. Does anyone want to fly the plane because your screaming is make me anxious and I'm not really sure what to do. Maybe one of you want to do it.
00:38:08 · Becky Kennedy
I think that's a massive overcorrection I've seen in parenting and I just want to make it very clear that is not what we do at Good Inside, which is kind of, my kid is upset and instead of just caring about their feelings, now their feelings dictate my decisions. That's terrifying for someone on a flight. If that's me, I'm not even scared of the turbulence anymore. I'm scared that this person is my supposed leader. That's also in a meeting when you complain about things and a leader might say, Oh, okay, you know what? Okay, we'll just get consensus on this. When it's a decision, that's a leadership decision, not a consensus decision, which some decisions are, but some decisions aren't because you are the only one who has certain information. Now, to me is the third announcement that I want to hear, when it's really turbulent, is something like this. I hear everyone screaming back there, that makes sense. And you haven't been in as many flights, you're right, it's very bumpy. And I know what I'm doing. This turbulence, though it scares you, it doesn't scare me. I'm actually going to get off this loudspeaker right now to go back to do my job. I'll see you when we land in Los Angeles. Now, even if the turbulence is the same, all of a sudden I feel this deep breath, because my worry is contained. This sturdy leader is able to see my emotional experience as real for me and not be overwhelmed by it themself. Those are the two distinct aspects of being a sturdy leader. I can see someone else's experience as real for them, but I can still hold onto my experience and so I'm not overwhelmed by someone else. So to a kid, it might be saying, look, let's say TV time is over, and my kid does not [inaudible 00:39:42] in my house, when I say TV time is over, I'm turning off the TV. When my kids were younger, they didn't say, You're right, mom, that's a great decision. No. They freaked out because they wanted to watch another one. So, a sturdy leader would say in that position, I'm turning the TV off, that's my decision. I get that you're upset, I don't really like to end TV time either. I also know we'll get through it. Do your thing and then we'll transition to brushing teeth and then I kind of wait it out.
00:40:12 · Becky Kennedy, Lenny Rachitsky
Or in the workplace, someone's complaining about, I don't know, making this up, but maybe it's some policy change, vacation change, number of days in the office, where you say, look, I want to share something that I know some people are going to have a reaction to, here's the new policy. People stop [inaudible 00:40:25], complaining. Look, I get it, this is a big change and you're right. This does make things hard in a certain way, and I totally see that, and the way you're feeling makes sense. And here's some version of why we're doing it and I know we're going to get through it and I have faith in us to weather this turbulence. And I think, in every situation, kids, workplace, in laws, whatever it is, that sturdy leadership always feels good. [00:40:54] S0: This is a really good segue to something I definitely wanted to ask you about, which is this idea of boundaries, of how to set boundaries well and how that relates to long-term resilience, versus just this idea of short-term happiness. I was just yesterday watching your advice on how to set boundaries with my kid, because I struggle with it sometimes and I'm just like, What am I doing wrong? And it was extremely helpful. I started using your advice and I'm like, Wow, he's doing exactly what I wanted to do. So, there's a lot of power here. So, talk about just from your advice to parents around boundaries and this idea of long-term resilience and then how that might translate.