Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
00:34:34 · Becky Kennedy, Lenny Rachitsky
And it's manifesting as this difficulty changing meaning time, but actually there's other themes of control and independence at play. [00:34:42] S0: As maybe a lesson here is, clarifying, here's what you own on this team, on this project, here's things that you're going to drive, here's where I'm going to be really involved. Is that maybe a takeaway? [00:34:53] S1: I think that is definitely a takeaway. I also just love naming your intention, that's always really helpful. Hey, I want to look over this project together, because I want to get ahead of some things and I think that's actually going to help you do the most independent work. That's why I want to go through it in such detail. When you name the intention very, very clearly for someone, they're much more likely to interpret your behavior through the intention you just named, because your intention isn't to control them or make them feel small. But if that's also something they have a predilection for, it's even more important for those people to do the naming of the intention up front. [00:35:30] S0: And there's also just a whole micromanaging, I don't know, element to this. So, this is why people in part hate micromanagement. Like, I want to be in control of something, why get out of this? [00:35:39] S1: Yeah, which is a dance. Exactly.
00:35:39 · Becky Kennedy, Lenny Rachitsky
[00:35:39] S1: Yeah, which is a dance. Exactly. [00:35:41] S0: Yeah. Okay. Something else that you teach, that I find really helpful, is this idea of sturdy, becoming a sturdy parent, learning to be sturdy. That feels very related to being a good leader, just like learning how to deal with challenges. Talk about that from the kids' context and then how it might be useful in work.
00:35:59 · Becky Kennedy
[00:35:59] S1: Yeah, I think that's the essence of what Good Inside does. We help parents become sturdy leaders, so they can raise sturdy, confident kids. And when I started this, I'd use that word a lot. People would say to me, I've never heard anyone use that word. I know what it means. But I think about language too, and I like language that helps me conjure up an image or a feeling. It takes it out of my brain and I think the word sturdy, if you picture someone in your life, even if you haven't thought about them, who's the sturdy person I know? I bet you can kind of locate them, you see them, and there's a feeling you have around them. And I think the best leaders we have are sturdy. And so, I'll start it with a metaphor, because I actually think that brings it to life. And I think this is as true in parenting and in the workplace. So, picture being a passenger on a flight. It's really turbulent and you start screaming and everyone starts screaming, okay? So, everyone's panicked in the flight and then you hear the announcement from the pilot and I think there's three types of announcements you can have. The third one's going to be the sturdy one, the first two, not as much. So the first one is some version of, What are you freaking out about? Stop screaming. You're making this flight awful for everyone and you're distracting me and stop making a big deal out of nothing. And that's kind of when we say those words to a kid, Stop freaking out. You're ruining this for everyone. But the truth is, if you think about yourself on a flight and the pilot says that, you don't feel calmer. Number one, you're worried they don't notice the turbulence. Number two, you're a little disturbed that it just takes your screaming to make the pilot kind of lose it at you, right? And that actually makes you feel less safe. And so, that's like in a meeting where people, I don't know, voice something that doesn't feel good and the leader essentially is like, Stop complaining. That's not sturdy. The second version is also not sturdy. And I think we've a little bit, at least in parenting, over corrected to this, which is a pilot saying like, I hear you screaming. You know what? I'm opening the cockpit door. Does anyone want to fly the plane because your screaming is make me anxious and I'm not really sure what to do. Maybe one of you want to do it.
00:38:08 · Becky Kennedy
I think that's a massive overcorrection I've seen in parenting and I just want to make it very clear that is not what we do at Good Inside, which is kind of, my kid is upset and instead of just caring about their feelings, now their feelings dictate my decisions. That's terrifying for someone on a flight. If that's me, I'm not even scared of the turbulence anymore. I'm scared that this person is my supposed leader. That's also in a meeting when you complain about things and a leader might say, Oh, okay, you know what? Okay, we'll just get consensus on this. When it's a decision, that's a leadership decision, not a consensus decision, which some decisions are, but some decisions aren't because you are the only one who has certain information. Now, to me is the third announcement that I want to hear, when it's really turbulent, is something like this. I hear everyone screaming back there, that makes sense. And you haven't been in as many flights, you're right, it's very bumpy. And I know what I'm doing. This turbulence, though it scares you, it doesn't scare me. I'm actually going to get off this loudspeaker right now to go back to do my job. I'll see you when we land in Los Angeles. Now, even if the turbulence is the same, all of a sudden I feel this deep breath, because my worry is contained. This sturdy leader is able to see my emotional experience as real for me and not be overwhelmed by it themself. Those are the two distinct aspects of being a sturdy leader. I can see someone else's experience as real for them, but I can still hold onto my experience and so I'm not overwhelmed by someone else. So to a kid, it might be saying, look, let's say TV time is over, and my kid does not [inaudible 00:39:42] in my house, when I say TV time is over, I'm turning off the TV. When my kids were younger, they didn't say, You're right, mom, that's a great decision. No. They freaked out because they wanted to watch another one. So, a sturdy leader would say in that position, I'm turning the TV off, that's my decision. I get that you're upset, I don't really like to end TV time either. I also know we'll get through it. Do your thing and then we'll transition to brushing teeth and then I kind of wait it out.
00:40:12 · Becky Kennedy, Lenny Rachitsky
Or in the workplace, someone's complaining about, I don't know, making this up, but maybe it's some policy change, vacation change, number of days in the office, where you say, look, I want to share something that I know some people are going to have a reaction to, here's the new policy. People stop [inaudible 00:40:25], complaining. Look, I get it, this is a big change and you're right. This does make things hard in a certain way, and I totally see that, and the way you're feeling makes sense. And here's some version of why we're doing it and I know we're going to get through it and I have faith in us to weather this turbulence. And I think, in every situation, kids, workplace, in laws, whatever it is, that sturdy leadership always feels good. [00:40:54] S0: This is a really good segue to something I definitely wanted to ask you about, which is this idea of boundaries, of how to set boundaries well and how that relates to long-term resilience, versus just this idea of short-term happiness. I was just yesterday watching your advice on how to set boundaries with my kid, because I struggle with it sometimes and I'm just like, What am I doing wrong? And it was extremely helpful. I started using your advice and I'm like, Wow, he's doing exactly what I wanted to do. So, there's a lot of power here. So, talk about just from your advice to parents around boundaries and this idea of long-term resilience and then how that might translate.
00:41:24 · Becky Kennedy
[00:41:24] S1: Yeah. And so, I think related to being a sturdy leader, to make it more concrete, there's two jobs we have as a parent. I think they're the same two jobs we have as any sturdy leader in any environment. And that's setting boundaries, which are limits we set, certain decisions we make. Boundaries often relate to your position of authority, where you have some long-term goal in mind that someone else in the system just isn't as aware of, or a two-year-old isn't as capable of holding onto, which is why you're in the position of making a decision. So, that's the boundaries. And the other side is, validating kids' or someone else's experience, while not being taken over by it. And I think we've moved so far in this direction of validating kids' experience, and I'll go on record and saying, validating kids' feelings is an incomplete parenting approach. That is half of our job, but it doesn't work if we're not doing the other half, which is setting boundaries, which is the skill I feel best about teaching people, because I think it's what we're often lacking. So, my definition of boundaries, I do like because it's immediately usable and testable. Boundaries are what you tell someone else you will do, and it requires the other person to do nothing. Too often I hear people say, My kid doesn't respect my boundaries. My colleague doesn't respect my boundaries. And with all due respect, I often think, I think you have an incorrect definition of boundaries. I think you're probably making a request, which by the way, we do a lot. There's nothing wrong with requests, but it's not a boundary. Because if you're setting what you call a boundary and you're really making a request, you're giving all of your power away to the other person, because you're saying the success of this important moment depends on my two-year-old. What? I'm not going to give my power to my two-year-old. And I always tell parents, I would bet on you any day over your kid, and it's not because I don't like your kid. I do like your kid. I just believe in you more. And so a good example of this, let's say, is, I have a kid, like I was describing before, who's not a people pleaser.