Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
00:25:48 · Lenny Rachitsky, Becky Kennedy
[00:25:48] S0: It's interesting how much of this comes back to just kind of assuming they're smart and are trying to do their best job and are good inside and translating to, okay, in spite of that, here's something that is still going wrong, let's try to figure out... There's kind of this idea of curiosity over judgment, trying to figure out what's missing. [00:26:06] S1: And I mean, that's exactly it. Those are two things also that I think are in opposition. You inherently cannot be judgmental when you're curious. And when you're judgmental about something, you're inherently not curious about it. And I think it's assuming... I say assume, good inside or assume MGI, other people say assume positive intent. Whatever language hits your heart, I think is the language that's... Everyone's different. MGI makes sense for me, but if there's someone else that has a different phrase, someone should use that one. And then, I think also assuming, this person would want to work through this with me. And I think Lenny, that's one of the things that we also miss a ton in our kids. The kids who hit, no matter what they say, they really don't like feeling out of control. The kid who's lying to your face, they don't want to lie to your face. They don't want to behave this way either, again, which doesn't make the behavior okay, but it makes us soften a tiny bit and realize we're on the same team. And I think actually we all want the same outcome.
00:26:06 · Becky Kennedy, Lenny Rachitsky
[00:26:06] S1: And I mean, that's exactly it. Those are two things also that I think are in opposition. You inherently cannot be judgmental when you're curious. And when you're judgmental about something, you're inherently not curious about it. And I think it's assuming... I say assume, good inside or assume MGI, other people say assume positive intent. Whatever language hits your heart, I think is the language that's... Everyone's different. MGI makes sense for me, but if there's someone else that has a different phrase, someone should use that one. And then, I think also assuming, this person would want to work through this with me. And I think Lenny, that's one of the things that we also miss a ton in our kids. The kids who hit, no matter what they say, they really don't like feeling out of control. The kid who's lying to your face, they don't want to lie to your face. They don't want to behave this way either, again, which doesn't make the behavior okay, but it makes us soften a tiny bit and realize we're on the same team. And I think actually we all want the same outcome. [00:27:08] S0: Wait, say more about that, because that doesn't feel, as a parent, that my kid doesn't want to... When he's throwing a thing across the way or just resisting going in the car. I want to hear more about what's going on there.
00:27:20 · Becky Kennedy
[00:27:20] S1: Yeah. I mean, first of all, I'll start with the baseline, right? That as a clinical psychologist, I was initially trained in this very reward, punishment, timeout, sticker chart, mode. And to be honest, I loved it, because I have a very healthy left brain and our left brains love logic and we love linearity. And as soon as you're a parent, you're like, there's no linearity or logic really, but our brain wants that to be a system. And it's kind of a system of punish the bad and you have less of the bad and reward the good. And no one really says, Well, how are we raising a human? Those are just behaviors, but our brain loves it. And that's what I started teaching to parents, I did, in my private practice, because it felt clean. But it was at complete odds with everything I knew was helping all the adults in my practice change their lives. And that's actually what gave me insight into starting Good Inside. It's like, there's no way that what helps the 35-year-old rewire their brain and change for the better, is that theoretical opposition with what a two-year-old and five-year-old needs to become resilient and confident. That just doesn't make sense. And I think we have these ideas about kids. Even something I hear a lot, you're making a bad choice, to kids. You're a good person, you're making a bad choice. This is not about forgiving bad behavior, I'm pretty firm about that. But I just don't believe a four-year-old who's throwing is like, hold on, should I throw this at my sister? Should I or should I not? I will choose as not... I mean, think about us. When we act out, I don't think most of us are in a decision making place. We escalate and here's one of the big insights besides people are good inside, that helped me form all of my other approaches, is kids are born with all the feelings and none of the skills to manage feelings. Bad behavior at any age can basically be reduced to feelings that overpower skills. And yes, behavior is a problem, but behavior isn't the core problem. It's a manifestation of the problem. The actual problem is someone doesn't have the skill they need to manage something happening internally. And if they had that skill and could access it, the behavior would change. But that would be kind of the outcome, not the place of actual intervention.
00:29:34 · Becky Kennedy
And so, when a kid hits, they look also and kids will say things like, "I don't care what you say." They're out of control. Maybe they're in a situation where, I don't know, they could be tired, but also they're angry that a sibling has a toy and they don't have skills to manage anger, they're jealous that someone is playing with something and they can't manage the jealousy. And when you look at bad behavior through the lens of feelings that overpower skills, you start to think like a coach. It always has struck me with kids, that we don't punish them into learning how to swim, which I know sounds funny. But if you paid for swim lessons and the person said, You know what? I'm just not going to put up with this. It's this inappropriate behavior. By the way, your kid has to learn to swim if they're going to function in life. So, send them to their room and tell them to come back when they learn how to swim. It's absurd, it's obviously laughable. I think swimming is very important, but an even more important life skill is learning how to manage your emotions. It is. And nobody learns new skills by being sent to their room, nobody learns new skills by adding shame. All that does is increase the gap between feelings and skills. It's just totally counterproductive. The answer is, we have to set boundaries. We have to be the people setting boundaries around out of control behavior. But then we actually have to teach our kids the skills they were missing, which levels up the skills. And that's how not only you change behavior short term, but you actually change behavior massively long term.
00:31:08 · Lenny Rachitsky, Becky Kennedy
[00:31:08] S0: I'm actually in the middle of starting potty training with our kid and I'm taking this little online course and they call it potty learning, not potty training, for exactly that reason. You're not training them to do a thing. They don't know how to do it, so you just teach them, like you're teaching them the alphabet, just teach them all little steps and what they need to learn. [00:31:24] S1: You're not doing our potty learning course? Lenny, I'm going to talk to you after. [00:31:30] S0: Oh, I didn't know you had one. Okay. [00:31:31] S1: Our marketing message isn't getting out there. [00:31:33] S0: I'm switching immediately. Well, how do people find it? Goodinside.com? [00:31:39] S1: It's actually one of the things I feel very strongly about putting out for free. Because, I think potty stuff is one of the early lessons around body autonomy and skills. And the quickest way we kind of mess it up as parents is kind of trying to take over the process. And it could be so stressful. And I actually told my team while ago is, I just think this should be a service. So, if you Google Good Inside potty, you can have it for zero dollars. [00:32:05] S0: Oh, it's actually free already. [00:32:07] S1: Yes, it's free. [00:32:08] S0: I'm switching immediately. [00:32:09] S1: Yes. [00:32:09] S0: Is there a corollary to adult work environments in potty learning? [00:32:15] S1: Yeah. There is, there always is. [00:32:15] S0: Do tell.
00:32:17 · Becky Kennedy
[00:32:17] S1: Well, okay. So, let's think about what the potty stuff is about for kids. When our kids are younger, they control two things in their entire life. What goes into their body and what comes out of their body? That's all. No, obviously, hopefully we let them pick their clothes here and there, but thematically... By the way, and they shouldn't be in charge of a ton more categories because they're two, right? But it's why those two areas can become so heated for families because we get so stressed. And when kids, especially if you don't have a people pleaser, okay? When kids even smell, my parent is stepping into one of the only two domains that are mine, holy moly, will they do nutty things to push you back. And so, what's the general lesson, the human lesson is, what is it like for someone to have not that many areas of life that they're in control of? Number one, just think about that. Think about the first 10 minutes of your kids' day. We wake them up. We tell them what the weather is. We tell them, No, you can't wear that. We tell them what's for breakfast. We tell them their shirt's on the wrong way. If my husband woke me up that way, I would be in a bad mood the rest of the day. Okay? And I'd probably be looking for a million different areas to just grasp control of as a way of screaming to the world like, I am my own person. Right? And so, if we think about that in the workplace, well, first of all, temperamentally, there are a subset of people, I call these the resilient rebels. They present as strong-willed, defiant kids, whose... I think we all walk around with the core fear that we end up acting out. Their core fear is the loss of control. They are very, very attuned to people kind of stepping into their domain, and if they smell it, they resist. Well, we have those as adults too. It's tricky to collaborate with them. And again, we need to have an expectation, but we might see that as, why do I ask someone to switch a meeting time? And it feels like I took a knife to their heart, the way they react, right? Well, that theme might be coming up and maybe we can go one level deeper and say, Is this someone who in general... I'm making this up, but, oh, someone got promoted before they did on their team, they just had a change in manager, they just had their vacation denied, whatever it was. Oh, is that actually what we're talking about?