Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
00:16:15 · Becky Kennedy, Lenny Rachitsky
[00:16:15] S1: Yeah. And I want to reveal something about myself. Right? So one of the things I think about is that efficiency and relationship building are often in opposition. We're doing one or the other. And one of the things I've learned the very, very hard way about myself, especially since I've been working, the way I've been working the last couple of years, is my efficiency is kind of reinforced at work. Right? And a lot of us who can be very efficient and get things done, we can have a little morality about it. We listen to someone's story, we're like, "Come on, get to the point." When that person in our life is like, "The whole point is that I want to tell you the whole story." And I think if anyone's listening and thinking, "Yeah, I'm kind of an efficiency oriented person, dropping into relationship mode takes real intention." And it's hard, especially if a big part of your life, the efficiency is reinforced. So if it feels awkward and slow. And I always call it with my kids, my best time just feels low stim. It just feels so low stim. I'm like, "Is this right? Am I doing this right?" That's probably a sign I am because not much is happening and I'm not being efficient with my time. I'm just in kind of relationship building mode. [00:17:30] S0: What I think about as you're talking about this is the best people I've worked with that are most effective at work are the people that are really good at this, that you feel like really listen, really care, just aren't rushed. And so I could totally see the power here. [00:17:44] S1: Yeah.
00:17:44 · Becky Kennedy, Lenny Rachitsky
[00:17:44] S1: Yeah. [00:17:46] S0: So one of the core principles you teach, the name of your book and the name of your product and community and everything you built is "Good Inside." I'm curious if that's a useful lens in the work environment too. You teach kids are good inside, no matter their behavior, they may be having a hard time, but they're still good inside. Is that useful in work at all? Are people always still good inside? I imagine not always.
00:18:08 · Becky Kennedy
[00:18:08] S1: I think it's a very useful framework. And I'll say why, but I want to separate things that we often confuse. No part of me if my kid is, when they were younger hitting, would I be like, "My kid is good inside, so who cares that they hit?" Or, "This employee's good inside, so it doesn't matter that they're not getting their PRDs in on time," whatever it is. No. And I think that's actually the other thing that's core to Good Inside is the idea of being good inside inherently requires us to separate behavior and identity. Most difficult times we have personally or interpersonally come because we've collapsed behavior and identity. And it's easy to do because we infer a lot from people's behavior for our own. Right? So someone's late to work a lot, "Oh, that person's lazy." Right? Seeing that person as good inside starts with this sentence, "This is a good person who is late." Right? Or, "I have a good kid who's hitting." And I do this thing with my hands because it actually helps my brain and body see the difference. One hand is identity, the other hand is behavior and literally just separating them forces you to distinguish who someone is good inside from their behavior. And ironically, that's what allows you to effectively change and improve their behavior. Because we all know what it's like to feel defensive. Do you know why we're defensive? Because we think someone else, instead of talking about our behavior, is talking about our identity. And then we can't even talk about our behavior anymore and being late because we feel like they're accusing us of being a bad person or being lazy or not caring about the other people in the meeting. Now we can't even talk about the reason for my lateness because my whole identity feels wrapped up in it. So the quickest way to have an unproductive conversation is to lose sight of the fact that someone's good inside. If I'm talking about someone at work, let's say again, who's always late, here's like a quote "good inside," infused conversation. I would start by saying, "First of all, I want to say we're on the same team." If that's the only thing people take from this, that is the most amazing way to have a more productive conversation with anyone. "I want to say we're on the same team. I know you're a good person. You probably don't need me to tell you that we need to start meetings on time.
00:20:11 · Becky Kennedy, Lenny Rachitsky
We both know that. It's also been happening consistently, which lets me know something is going on that I want to get to the bottom of with you. Because we need you to be there at 9:00 AM to start this important leadership meeting. So tell me what's been going on. Is there something at work that feels bad that makes you not want to come in? Is there something going on at home? Is this, I don't know, a hard time managing your time, whatever it is, let's get to the bottom of it together so we can figure it out." So that to me is that lens. And it's honestly, Lenny, it's the same thing we do, I don't know, and like a good sports coach. I don't know someone, I don't know, who's a good even professional sports coach who's like, "You missed all the layups today. What's wrong with you? And here's what I'm taking away." It's like, "Whoa, you're a good player. Something's going on. Let's get in the gym tomorrow. Let's figure it out. I believe in you. I am putting you on the bench now because it's not really working out, but we're going to get to the bottom of this together." That comes from seeing the good inside someone. [00:21:11] S0: Just hearing you say these things is always like, I could see exactly why this works. So a takeaway here is just kind of start with admitting to them and showing them you know they are smart, they know what is the right thing to do, they just maybe aren't doing it.
00:21:11 · Lenny Rachitsky, Becky Kennedy
[00:21:11] S0: Just hearing you say these things is always like, I could see exactly why this works. So a takeaway here is just kind of start with admitting to them and showing them you know they are smart, they know what is the right thing to do, they just maybe aren't doing it. [00:21:25] S1: Yeah. And because now we can take that off the table. And if someone's thinking, "But I don't think that of the person," then it's actually just a very different conversation, but we put that in a different category. But if you start talking about someone's behavior right away and they think, which we all tend to think, "You're actually saying I'm not a smart person." You're not even talking about the behavior anymore. Now their language seems like it's talking about the behavior, but all you're doing is you're having a debate you don't even realize you're having, which is whether they're a good, moral, worthy person. That's not an effective work conversation. [00:22:00] S0: So just kind of laying out that you know they are good, they're smart, they know the right thing to do, but here's something that isn't going the way that it should? [00:22:08] S1: Yeah. [00:22:09] S0: This connects to something else that you teach, which is the MGI, the most generous interpretation. Talk about that and how that might relate to work.
00:22:17 · Becky Kennedy
[00:22:17] S1: Yeah. I've realized I have an allergy to ideas that don't have action. I've realized this actually at work with and just with psychology too. So this whole idea, people are good inside, how can you separate behavior from identity as a framework to then go into a conversation, all of it just feels too theoretical for me. And so I like to think like, what is one tool I can use to action on that idea? And it started, I think through parenting. I'd finished day with my kids. I was going to bed when my kids are [inaudible 00:22:48]. I was like, "Wow, that day was just disaster." And then I would hear myself start talking about my kid in a way where I always loved my kid, but I didn't realize till later, even through the language, I stopped liking my kid. I was just. Even through the language, I stopped liking my kid. I was just listening to your Peter Deng episode, which was a lot about language and how language then impacts thoughts. And I think, a lot as a parent, but it's true as a leader, the story you tell yourself as a kid at night, kind of becomes the parent you are the next morning. Probably same truth. The story you tell yourself by your organization at night, becomes the leader you are the next morning. And I realized I was using what I later called this least generous interpretation. I think we all do that naturally, at least I do. Like, I see my kid not listening and laughing if I'm trying to discipline. And my first thought is, I think my kid's a sociopath. I don't know how I get there. My kid's two years old, but it happens so fast. Okay? And I realized at night, the only way to shift this and get into a good inside mindset, was just to say to myself, what's the most generous interpretation of why I would say to my kids some version of, stop jumping on the couch, it's dangerous, you're near the glass table, and he'd look at me and jump doubly hard on the couch. My least generous interpretation was that he's sociopath. I already covered that one. My most generous interpretation, there's not one right answer. It might be, this is a kid who's really oriented around wanting to feel in control. And when that feels threatened, he doubles down. He is 0% people pleasing, this third child of mine, zero. So the whole, I'm disappointed with you, it's not going to work with a kid like that.