00:34:27 · Alan Chang, Guillaume Moubeche
[00:34:27] S0: Convince more top people to join, And that's why I'm here. [00:34:33] S1: So for everyone listening, if they wanna apply. Okay. Now that's... And and what kind of... So hiring is basically like the the biggest bottleneck. So you're trying to to get basically like a word out and and be on on more podcast, but what are the other things that you are doing for for hiring? Like, you believe in hiring agencies, all these kind of things? [00:34:57] S0: Or No. [00:34:58] S1: No. Okay. [00:34:59] S0: No. I just wasted money. [00:35:01] S1: Okay. I agree. And what I've... Actually, it's quite funny. Like, I have a funny story with with a hiring agency when I was trying to hire, like, a c level. And essentially, like, that agency, at the final stage, basically, like, told the person to ask for maybe, like, three times more than what he initially communicated with me because they were essentially, like, paid on the amount, you know, like, that they would get, like, a percentage of the of the final final yearly salary. So, yeah, I think it's it's a funny market. And on on your end, like, have you... Like, how exactly do you push people within the company to recommend others? Have you find ways that are working? [00:35:53] S0: I mean, if this is a truly good place to work, then I recommend. Right? [00:35:57] S1: And do you give incentives or not at all? [00:36:02] S0: We do, but we haven't really found a chain... Moving needle. [00:36:06] S1: Okay.
00:36:06 · Guillaume Moubeche, Alan Chang
[00:36:06] S1: Okay. [00:36:07] S0: Alright. I think ultimately, like, ultimately, the workplace environment is you're... You know, it's also a product you're building. Right? If your product is good, then people refer, you know, naturally. Right? Even with with our financial incentives. [00:36:22] S1: Yeah. I agree. I... But I think typically for us, for developers, it kind of helps, like, to give them an incentive, which is originally something we would think of of more like salespeople, but but [00:36:34] S0: like, the caveat is, you know, you need to have a good product. [00:36:37] S1: Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Of course. And what would you say is, like, the the the number two, like, problem at... That you're trying to to solve? [00:36:50] S0: I I mean, I think the key is, like, hiring. Right? Like, right now, we spend a jar of the time recruiting the best people. But ultimately, like, I really do two things. Right? It's recruitment and make sure... Making sure we're on the right track. [00:37:11] S1: And when it comes to, like, your hiring strategy, how exactly, like, does that work? Like, do you do you decide at the beginning of the year how many people you want to have, or you just [00:37:24] S0: I think [00:37:24] S1: it's not. Yeah. Okay.
00:37:24 · Guillaume Moubeche, Alan Chang
[00:37:24] S1: it's not. Yeah. Okay. [00:37:25] S0: Yeah. Super dumb. Right? It's like, you know, I can put any number on a spreadsheet. Right? But reality is, like, you know, let's say you you put a number on a spreadsheet which is a 100 people. Right? But you've hired, let's say, a 100 people, and then you realize, okay. That's actually... You know, this guy is actually brilliant. Are you going say no? That's dumb. Right? Yeah. On the other hand, like, let's say you put... Okay. You're you're going say you're hire a 100 people, but you can only find 20 great people. Does that mean you'll hire 80 mediocre people? That's also dumb. So whatever you put on a spreadsheet is just dumb. Right? It's just gonna be wrong. So actually, doesn't matter. [00:38:10] S1: Okay. And Like, if you [00:38:12] S0: if you see good people, you hire them, no matter what. Otherwise, you don't hire them. [00:38:18] S1: And what's like the the line, you know, be... Because typically, like, I'd say that you want to offer, like, competitive salaries, but you also want, you know, like, to manage kind of the... All the politics that can happen within a company. So typically, if you have, let's say, like, don't know, like, a really, really good engineer that you see during an interview, yet he wants to be paid more than your 10 x engineer, what they're currently getting, do you hire that person? Or, like, do you compromise on the salary? Or do you always...
00:38:18 · Guillaume Moubeche, Alan Chang
[00:38:18] S1: And what's like the the line, you know, be... Because typically, like, I'd say that you want to offer, like, competitive salaries, but you also want, you know, like, to manage kind of the... All the politics that can happen within a company. So typically, if you have, let's say, like, don't know, like, a really, really good engineer that you see during an interview, yet he wants to be paid more than your 10 x engineer, what they're currently getting, do you hire that person? Or, like, do you compromise on the salary? Or do you always... [00:38:58] S0: Yeah. Compensation is always merit based. So during the interview stage, obviously, we don't know the performance, but we do assess all the skills for that engineer, for example. And each of the skills, we put a grade. Okay. And the higher the grade, the higher we bid. [00:39:18] S1: Okay. But let's say [00:39:19] S0: let's say Let's say for let's say for, you know, a, you know... Let's say it's not an exceptional engineer, but, know, a decent engineer, and the ask is, you know, a very, very high ask, it actually doesn't matter what they are... The ask is. We bid based on what we think they're worth. And if Okay. Some other company wants to overpay for this engineer, by all means, do something dumb. Right? Like, that's that's... You know, like, good for you. Right? You you found a a company dumb enough to pay, you know, a high price. Good job. Okay. [00:39:51] S1: And how do you know that your price Again, is the right
00:39:51 · Guillaume Moubeche, Alan Chang
[00:39:51] S1: And how do you know that your price Again, is the right [00:39:57] S0: we pay based on how skillful you are. Right? If you're a high school engineer, we'll pay a very high price. Sometimes even higher than what you ask... What what you're asking for. Okay. Okay. Okay. So we we simply pay pay based on the skills you have. Now sometimes, to be clear, we don't get it right all the time during interview process. And sometimes we do adjust it, you know, post, you know, post interview. Like, for example, we have... Like, we have seen some, like, junior engineers that, you know, did, you know, okay in the interview, but we didn't realize how good they were. And then, you know, six months after they joined, it was, like, realized, actually, they're, you know, really exceptional. Like, some of them will increase their comp immediately. Right? They didn't even ask for it. They would just increase their comp immediately. But... Yeah. So, like, we we we we try to make conversation tied to it, you know, as meritocratic as possible. And that's also how bonuses work. Right? All our bonuses... And everyone's on the same bonus grid, so it doesn't matter what your seniority is. It's all about your contribution. [00:41:05] S1: And what would you say was the highest number of raise one person got in the team within a year? [00:41:13] S0: Like, for top performers, we've given them, like, two raises in a year. [00:41:16] S1: Okay. Nice. [00:41:18] S0: And, like, some of them, like... Yeah. I... We've also raised more than double in a year.
00:41:18 · Alan Chang, Guillaume Moubeche
[00:41:18] S0: And, like, some of them, like... Yeah. I... We've also raised more than double in a year. [00:41:26] S1: And do you feel like you're doing... Like, because whenever you you onboard someone, obviously, like, in an ideal world, you want only 10 x developer, but in the real world, like, you're gonna get good or really good engineers that you want to to go up to the 10 x. So what do you put in place so that people can actually, like, reach their full potential or develop? [00:41:52] S0: Yeah. I think... Yeah. Obviously, our bar is, like, you know, really good and above. But to be honest, like, I I I think if you're a good engineer, like, you know, we we should get out of the way. Right? So we should make sure, for example, developer experience is as good as possible. You know, each developer has, you know, tools they need to do to get the job done. Otherwise, like, get out of the way. Right? Like, I I don't think you need... I don't think any more than that. [00:42:27] S1: So for you, basically, like, people can reach their base potential simply because they are the typical profile that are, like, fast learners and will develop fast in an environment with surrounded by other, like, 10x engineers?