Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
01:36:31 · Lenny Rachitsky, Jason Cohen
[01:36:31] S0: Bam. All right. [01:36:32] S1: Yeah. [01:36:33] S0: I will just say that I have found A/B testing useful in my career. I think it's maybe at a certain scale when you're just trying to optimize and continue to grow, you know- [01:36:43] S1: Yeah. [01:36:43] S0: ... where it's like millions of users, like a percentage gain is like millions of dollars. [01:36:47] S1: True. [01:36:47] S0: Most people are not working at that scale, most people. [01:36:49] S1: Right. [01:36:50] S0: Yeah. So just wanted to, for folks that find it valuable. [01:36:54] S1: That's true. [01:36:55] S0: But I love- [01:36:56] S1: However, even so, on your own podcast when you were interviewing the guy from Shopify, and he was saying how maybe a third of the things that they found with their systems just disappear, they just magically disappear. And they have a team of a hundred people, and they're really good at it, and their effects disappear all the time. So they double check later whether the immediate effect goes away because even then. [01:37:19] S0: Right. I think that was the CTO of Shopify conversation. Yeah. [01:37:19] S1: Oh, okay. Yeah. [01:37:22] S0: Yeah. Sweet. Okay. [01:37:24] S1: I just go off of memory because I listen to a lot of episodes, but I don't- [01:37:26] S0: That's such a good one. [01:37:26] S1: ... no, it's- [01:37:27] S0: I love that. Yeah. Where they leave like a holdout group essentially, and then they just look back, "Was the effect something that lasted?" And most times it didn't. [01:37:34] S1: Yeah. [01:37:34] S0: Such a good one.
01:37:34 · Lenny Rachitsky, Jason Cohen
[01:37:34] S0: Such a good one. [01:37:35] S1: There you go. And that's with a lot of end. So that's what I mean. If you're doing that level of stuff, good for you. But if you're not, I don't know, man. [01:37:42] S0: There we go. Well, Jason, it's always a really good sign when I'm just like, "I can't wait to get this conversation out the door and into people's minds because there's so much value here." I'm just already anticipating all people are going to reply and just like, "I got so many ideas for what to do with my product," which is exactly the goal. And with that, we have reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready? [01:38:06] S1: Boy. Yeah. I mean, I don't like talking a long time anyway, so lightning's great. [01:38:10] S0: Here we go. What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people? [01:38:16] S1: For writing, On Writing Well by William Zinsser. I know I'm not the only one, but that's the point. On my best day, I write like that. And then for product, I actually like Crossing the Chasm, which of course everyone's heard of, but what I find is no one's read it, so that you know the little picture, and you think you know what the chasm is, what I find is very quickly I realize, "Oh, you haven't read the book. You saw a blog post." And there's so much good stuff in there, how to define a market and really what to do with this model. It's fantastic. So I highly recommend reading the book.
01:38:16 · Jason Cohen, Lenny Rachitsky
[01:38:16] S1: For writing, On Writing Well by William Zinsser. I know I'm not the only one, but that's the point. On my best day, I write like that. And then for product, I actually like Crossing the Chasm, which of course everyone's heard of, but what I find is no one's read it, so that you know the little picture, and you think you know what the chasm is, what I find is very quickly I realize, "Oh, you haven't read the book. You saw a blog post." And there's so much good stuff in there, how to define a market and really what to do with this model. It's fantastic. So I highly recommend reading the book. [01:38:51] S0: I have had Geoffrey Moore on the podcast. We dove into a lot of this stuff. One of the things that always stuck with me is when early companies are looking for someone like them to adopt the thing. That's something that really stuck with me. It's not like they're looking for an early adopter to be like, "Oh, this is awesome." They're looking for someone that feels like them to say, "This is great." And so the early adopters are just going to spread to other early adopters and there's work to do beyond that. [01:39:14] S1: Yeah. Part of that's because he defines a market and among other things as, and the people in the market respect the opinions of the other people in the market. [01:39:23] S0: Exactly. [01:39:23] S1: And that's when you realize, "Oh, so jumping to a different market, it's not impossible. It's just like case studies aren't going to work." Yeah. [01:39:30] S0: It's a new thing. [01:39:31] S1: Yeah.
01:39:31 · Jason Cohen, Lenny Rachitsky
[01:39:31] S1: Yeah. [01:39:31] S0: Okay. All right. And then On Writing Well, such a huge trend in the book. That's like the book that most helped me write. And if you summarize the book, for me, it's just cut. Cut more and more of your stuff. There's always to cut. [01:39:43] S1: I love this phrase where he's on a panel with this guy who is like an amateur writer, and his summary to that guy is, the guy told him, "I never knew writing could be hard." And Zinsser says, " I never knew writing could be easy." I think both of those summarize the turmoil of being a writer. [01:40:07] S0: Yeah. The classic, maybe Hemingway, maybe not quote, "Writing is easy. I just sit at the typewriter and bleed." [01:40:14] S1: And bleed, yeah. [01:40:16] S0: So good. Okay. Moving on. Favorite recent movie or TV show? [01:40:21] S1: ER from 1994- [01:40:22] S0: Can- [inaudible 01:40:23] [01:40:24] S1: ... 15 seasons. Why do I say that? Besides the fact I think is good, I have a 16-year-old daughter and we're now on season, I think 13, watching this whole thing. She says it holds up after 25 years. And being Gen Alpha or whatever, I don't even know what it is. And so if this is an era when shows were an hour long, and seasons were forever, and she says it's great TV, it must be great TV. [01:40:52] S0: Wow. I've not had this podcast yet. Also, The Pitt. I don't know. If you enjoy ER, you'll enjoy The Pitt, which has won all these awards- [01:40:59] S1: Yeah. Pitt's good.
01:40:59 · Jason Cohen, Lenny Rachitsky
[01:40:59] S1: Yeah. Pitt's good. [01:41:00] S0: ... on Netflix. Fun fact, my cousin was in ER, not as a recurring character, but she was a young girl patient, and actually is a fancy actress in the world. [01:41:10] S1: Oh, cool. [01:41:10] S0: That was her start. Okay. Next question. Favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love. [01:41:17] S1: This is probably not unique, but Wispr Flow for dictation. It's really good. I like the keyboard shortcuts because I just use it all the time in all the software, and anything Anker makes. They have power stations, and docs, and rechargers. [01:41:31] S0: Anker with a K. [01:41:33] S1: Yeah. A-N-K. [01:41:34] S0: Yeah. [01:41:35] S1: Right. And just all their stuff is super high quality and works really well. Everything seems to charge twice as fast when plugged into an Anker thing. So I don't know. Whatever it is, it's really good. [01:41:44] S0: I got a new Anker charger, I also love Anker, that has a display on the side when you plug in stuff, and it's got multiple ports, and it shows you the percentage it's charging and the wattage per outlet. I love it. They're just like, "How do we make this more fancy, and fun, and charge more?" [01:41:58] S1: Yeah. [01:41:59] S0: I love it. Yeah. And then Wispr Flow, quick shout out. You get a year free Wispr Flow by becoming a insider, I think even just an annual subscriber of my newsletter as part of the product pass. And so check it out, Lennyproductpass.com. You could also check it with me. [01:42:15] S1: I did not know that. I'm not a shill for them.
01:42:15 · Jason Cohen, Lenny Rachitsky
[01:42:15] S1: I did not know that. I'm not a shill for them. [01:42:17] S0: I know. I love that. [01:42:17] S1: But it's great. [01:42:18] S0: I love when people recommend products in the product pass, a whole year free. [01:42:21] S1: Because I'm subscriber for long enough that I didn't get that. [01:42:23] S0: You missed out. You missed out. [01:42:23] S1: Okay. [01:42:24] S0: There's 19 products in there right now. [01:42:25] S1: Nice. [01:42:25] S0: And by the time this comes out, there'll be even more. Okay. Two more questions. Do you have a favorite life motto that you find yourself coming back to in work or in life? [01:42:35] S1: Yes. "Be yourself, everyone else is taken." And it's attributed to Oscar Wilde, but I've tried to look into that as I tried to get all my annotations correct for the book. And there's no evidence that he said it. But there's also no evidence who said it. So let's say it's Oscar Wilde because he said lots of things like that. [01:42:53] S0: I love that. And it's such a deep point. It's easy to hear and be like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." But it's something I've learned to be more and more true over time, especially as you see people online doing their thing and just like, "Oh, I want to be like that." And then you realize, no, you got to be yourself. [01:43:06] S1: No. And the people who love you or like what you do also want you to be yourself because that's what they love. And if you're changed, then they wouldn't love that. [01:43:14] S0: Final question, you have this fancy award behind you on your desk. I am curious what's the story there.