Y Combinator Startup Podcast
00:12:28 · Peter Steinberger
And my inbox was full of VCs begging me to take their money. And I did not want to. So when the big labs came knocking, and suddenly I was on the phone with Mark, Sam, a few others, this seemed like a much more interesting pass. It also felt unreal. Right? Talk about impostor syndrome. Maybe that's an important lesson for you. Everything that... Everything you can build can be forked or cloned, but your name cannot. So your personal brand is way more important than any single product that you ever will. Start working on that before you need it. So, yeah, I know how to play the game. I also know that doing this was the equivalent of selling my soul.md. If you know, you know. The decision was not easy, but I... If I learned anything during my time after the burnout, it's it's this, it's trusting your gut. And my gut told me that I like OpenAI the most. Did Hermes win? And the short answer I can give you is, it beat us where it hurt. We're still there. And both of those are my fault and my doing. In the months after the release, we got absolutely crushed by security reports. In some ways, wrote a prototype of what many open source projects now experience. And even though most were super HKC, I felt the pressure. And then the press, The press said 20% of our skills are malicious. Now, we actually bought a paper up at this. We did the numbers, and the numbers are more like 0.3%. We scanned all 67,000. We shipped the we shipped the paper. And you know, a correction never travels as far as a scare. I felt this responsibility. The world discovered OpenClaw. And even though there was this big scary disclaimer, actually much bigger than I could on the slides, when you install it, I knew many people wouldn't read the docs. So I really focused on that, hardening the code base, building layers and layers of security, added sandboxing, allow lists, a web protocol with permissions built in. We were shelling out to Python for some file operations, because there was some primitives that are simply lacking in TypeScript to ensure your agent stays in the workspace, it doesn't follow symlinks, and that the configuration files are written atomically. Most of the users didn't care a bit about that.
00:15:21 · Peter Steinberger
Sure they, they liked the abstract term of security, but in all practical terms, they updated, I broke something they depended on, I made things slower, and I made things more difficult to update. And another thing I have to admit, I got sloppy because now I had to... My time shifted between open source, the press, spending countless times on the phone with lawyers to set up a a five zero one three American nonprofit. I worked on my own one. And, you know, OpenAI is its own world that is interesting and demanding. I brought on help, and we got such an amazing community of maintainers that are very much respected. And everyone added their own little feature. I felt, I felt like I'm a bit in a hard place. After all, these people work for free, right? So who I am, who I am to tell them what to do, and also my attention was all over. So, we added a lot of features. You know, features are the fun part. A new feature is just a prompt away. The real cost comes after. Every feature we shipped, of course, with a configuration option, because we didn't wanna break everyone's setup. At our highest, I had to count that, we ended up with around nine and a half thousand configuration options, if you count all the permutations. You can write all the tests you want. It is impossible to cover all of these and not break things from time to time. It is infinitely harder to evolve software that has users. Meanwhile, other companies, they were fueled by VC money. They pushed ahead. The Anime Girl company did it especially well. People started inserting themselves into pretty much any conversation on Twitter while we were burned in security ground work and features. They had a simpler story, an aggressive marketing campaign, and a one liner to migrate people's claws. The main thing though that really hurt the project was Anthropic. Not the name, the part was stressful, but I kinda understood, and they were really nice about it. It was the fact that I optimized too much on the model. I built OpenClaw with Codex and GPT, but the harness for a long time really worked the best and was optimized for Opus. So when they pinged me with around twenty four hours notice that they're gonna disable a subscription for everyone, there was not really enough time to change course. I mean, sure, support open rate models. We did a lot of work on them, but they really weren't that great yet.
00:18:29 · Peter Steinberger
And the early OpenAI models simply lacked character. So maybe write this one down. Your dependencies business model is your business model. You know that's how fixed now solves pretty awesome. Open weight models are actually good. I learned a lot about harness engineering, but in many ways people moved on. You can see that in our download charts. We bottomed out at around 835,000 weekly downloads in May. And then after being declared deaths in in June, we peaked at 4,700,000, the highest ever. Both of those are true at the same time. A hype is like the weather. You might see it coming, but you can't control it. In my case, it was a storm. Question four, is it still fun? You know, somewhere around February, it stopped being fun. I started to feel like, it started to feel like a responsibility. I woke up, and the man who didn't want to build another company found himself in a situation where he had two jobs, or should I say a job in a calling, I was struggling. And worst of all, I stopped using my own product. Somewhere in that time I stopped making a product I love, and I worked on making something for everyone. It became less of a thing that I use every day, and more I think that I saw and felt was work. And I wanted to picture who everyone really is. One of them had a grocery agent, another one tried to social engineer my bot. Between everyone adding features and all the organization work, I became the person that fixed the bugs, fixed the security issues, and provided support and built a foundation. And because all these people were like giving the rumor mill, oh, OpenClaw is not owned by OpenAI, I didn't wanna take too much help from OpenAI. I mean, yeah, they gave me token, and I... Boy, did I use that. But I was also pulled into other projects, and there was a whole flood of people that I couldn't as easily block who wanted to talk to me. In hindsight, I could have many done differently. Like, could have asked for more help. I could have moved responsibility off my plate, but I was so deep in everything that I didn't take time to think through strategically. Luckily, met a bunch of amazing people, and little by little things aligned. I figured out my visa, eventually formed a nonprofit, we got amazing companies as donors, and I found some really good people that believe in open source and started working with me.
00:21:33 · Peter Steinberger
I also need to give NVIDIA a special shout out, because they were very early, and they simply asked me what I need, and then they sent people to take over much of their security work. And I think it was somewhere in May, around my birthday, where I had this feeling that things are starting to feel good again, where the joy of building for me was coming back. And, yeah, somewhere in the press, the press decoyed an OpenClaw killer every other week. At some point, think I counted 20 of them. There's even a literally a project called OpenClaw Killer. It's an uninstaller, which is totally unnecessary because we have an uninstaller, but you know. But none of the killer stories ever picked up what this is actually about. Open source. My source of inspiration is being annoyed. These days, I get annoyed when I have to use software where I can't just send a prompt to my agent to change it. That's the fun part that's coming back. It's hard to compete with someone who's just there having fun. Fun is velocity. The weeks I enjoyed building, the product got visibly better. The weeks I didn't, we shipped config options. Question five. What's next? Some people in the audience might be like, is this finally the part where he talks about graphs? First of all, I'm super happy with where we are with the foundation. Our mission is to bring people closer to AI, and things are changing so fast. For many people, it feels scary. I'm proud of one thing that OpenClaw achieved. And that for many people, it moved AI from this thing that's like nebulous and scary into something that is fun and weird, you know, lobsters and all of that. And they'll keep pushing there. Keep building a great ecosystem of open source software with events that bring people together and with education. We have 10 people now on payroll. We're hiring a few more roles, including a CEO. Second of all, I kinda made Claw a noun. You know, cup party dropped the open. Satya says enterprise grade Claws in Microsoft's Keynote. There are 33,000 Claw named repositories. If we are in a simulation, we are certainly in one of the weirder ones that won't get shut down. I dig this part of the future. Third, we still don't have an agent that's always on, always syncing. There's still so much to do.
00:24:31 · Peter Steinberger
The landscape and the tech in AI are evolving faster than the software that we build around, and that's an opportunity for all of you. Our workflows are also evolving. Like the vision I had early on, where we shouldn't think about session or compaction. The world is finally, the models, tech is finally getting to a stage where this is becoming a reality. We're entering a world where we finally move on from the text, text only interfaces to voice and multimodality. Just yesterday, we got a hack working that your Claw can now FaceTime you. And this is kinda what matters why OpenClaw exists at all. Every lab will sell you an agent. OpenClaw is the alternative. Open source, runs everywhere, works with any model. And if you run local models, your data never has to leave your device. Your agent, your machine, your life. That's not even my thesis. That's Garry's, you know? We just chipped it first. So we also finally are building OpenClaw with OpenClaw again, but this time with a twist where everyone sees each other session on a team server, and there's a claw that knows what everyone else is working on, and also can also take over orchestration of the work. And we are finally leaving this slowly, this weird blip in the future where people work in terminals and run around with their laptops open because the agent needs to keep working. If you only remember three things. Number one, don't stop having fun. Find is the ultimate driver so you can you can get the best ideas. Number two, listen to your gut. And also, fix the things that annoy you. It might just become the next big thing. And number three, stay focused. You know, another podcast is not what will make you win. Live in the future, build what's missing, and when they write your obituary, keep shipping, it confuses them. Now these were five questions. I'm sure you have many more, and I think we have plenty of time for QA.
00:27:00 · S1, Peter Steinberger
[00:27:00] S1: So, first it was agents, then loops, then graphs. How are you building these days? [00:27:06] S0: I mean, was always sessions, right? But in the beginning you had to like actually care that like you would clean, and like you would make sure that your instructions are coherent. And these days it's more like my sessions are topics, clearing a session sometimes even a disadvantage because there's so much information in there that helps the agent. But the big thing, the thing that shifted is, I try to make the agent more proactive work for me. So when I shift my attention to something, I don't wanna read issues, I wanna see fully reviewed and tested PRs. Maybe I like the feature, maybe I don't, but like I don't want to like split my attention. At the same time at work, if you come to me and you tell me this feature idea, I'm gonna get mad at you. Like, it's so easy that you just discuss the feature idea with an agent, you build it, you make screenshots, you let me play with it. That way if it's good, we can like immediately iterate it, but most of the time people will figure out why it's not good and not even come to me. [00:28:28] S1: What comes after graphs? And what's next for OpenClaw?