00:32:56 · John Coogan, Jordi Hays, Luca Ferrari, Mark Pincus
[00:32:56] S1: Yeah. I mean, let let let's start with the book. I want to know like before the actual before the thesis came together like why write a book at all? Are people even reading books these days? Like we see these charts of like books just falling off entirely. What what what was the is it about [00:33:17] S0: They should have they should you should put something in the book that's just like, hey reader, I want you to pause for a second. If you ever meet me in person, I will ask you for code word. This is Easter the code eggs. Yeah. Easter egg. [00:33:30] S4: Reward you [00:33:30] S6: for making it this far. [00:33:32] S0: And if you tell me I love your book, I will ask you for the code word. [00:33:39] S1: But yeah, I I to hear about just the general motivations and the general
00:33:39 · John Coogan, Mark Pincus
[00:33:39] S1: But yeah, I I to hear about just the general motivations and the general [00:33:45] S6: But I think everyone should I think you should build a house and write a book one time. Okay. Because neither one ends up feeling like it was, you know, the right return on the investment of time. But it's but you have this passion in you, and you should be all in and get it out. Yeah. There's no one time, and this is my one time, I I had I'd say that there was just a lot of lessons and a whole playbook built up across five companies and in building Zynga. And I created a course at Stanford Business School and Stanford CS, and I give this advice over and over to founders and even people running companies at scale. And I just said, I might as well get in a book. I think that my reference was Zero to One, Peter Thiel's book. And I thought, it's a big reach goal, if if my book can be referenceable ten years later like that, then, you know, it's of use. [00:34:48] S1: Yeah. Where do you think you either differ with the Zero to One thinking? Do you think it needs expansions, updates? Like what needs to be added to the canon that isn't in Zero to One? [00:35:03] S6: Well, like what what to actually do. [00:35:07] S1: So Yeah. [00:35:08] S6: That's a [00:35:08] S1: good point.
00:35:08 · John Coogan, Mark Pincus, Jordi Hays
[00:35:08] S1: good point. [00:35:09] S6: Zero to One is I just reread it a year ago and it motivated me again. I was like, oh, yeah. I love the moral arbitrage and the monopoly. And it's these big ideas that you love and you can repeat, but it's not a how to guide or a playbook. And I think so many people have ideas and they either don't pursue them. And I think in this new world AI, that's a shame because the bar is so low. They do and they fail for the wrong reasons. I think you guys have probably seen this too. So many people who, they have a great idea, but it's buried in a losing product. So the core thesis that I've been saying over and over to myself and other people across my career is that once you realize that you have winning instincts and you've attached them to losing ideas, it changes everything. And that's how you change your odds of success. [00:36:07] S1: Yeah. Yeah. I've heard that. A plus entrepreneur with a C plus market or C plus opportunity. [00:36:12] S6: The G plus idea is the enemy of an a because it's good enough to get funding and get a team and [00:36:19] S0: Yeah. Yeah. It's funny because when I was when I was like around maybe senior year of college, was working on a product and I felt like I was getting like two different types of advice. Like one is like don't listen to anyone just like [00:36:31] S1: Yeah.
00:36:31 · John Coogan, Jordi Hays, Mark Pincus
[00:36:31] S1: Yeah. [00:36:31] S0: You know, advice is worthless. Just like do do do and you'll and you'll figure it out. And then and then and then on the other side, you know, people are giving you, you know, advice and and sort of playbooks. And I distinctly remember one meeting that I had where somebody who's now a friend was like, you're super talented. This idea of like, it's okay but it's not great and it's going to hold you back from your potential. And I and I just like didn't fully listen but it's just stuck in my head since that Yeah. [00:37:05] S6: Sad. Right? We see founders who are talented and they are just sticking with an idea that's just not quite right or not that good. And it's because there's something in their gut that they know is amazing. And that was me. I mean, I talk a lot about it in the book that I This is not a humble brag. Okay? I managed to fail. I created one of the first three social networks, tribe.net. And there were probably 10 launched in that two or three year period, including Facebook and MySpace and Tagged and Bebo. Eight of the 10 probably made it, were successful on some level. I was probably amongst the two that weren't. And so it took an act of willpower to fail. And I had that much will. I was so determined to stick with this one losing idea that really by the time I got to Zynga, I was just not going to do that again. I think that's a big message the book, and I think it's I still need to hear that message today because we fall in love with our ideas. [00:38:11] S1: Yeah.
00:38:11 · John Coogan, Jordi Hays
[00:38:11] S1: Yeah. [00:38:12] S0: How much like, to you, what is the balance between some ideas like, I I find this in consumer, like, quite a quite a bit more than than enterprise because it typically is a lot more defined. But in consumer, like, there's ideas that I've been pitched and I'm like, that's a terrible idea. And then like the founder, you know, just does it and it and it totally works and and sometimes unpredictable. And I think you can like tune your intuition like quite a bit but it can never be like a 100% crystal ball. You just know exactly whether an idea is gonna work or not. Like what is your What has been your framework of Yeah. Like what's the point where you're like, I'm not a 100% sure this idea will work, it's worth putting in the three weeks or three months or whatever time is necessary to actually get the reality check to the idea?
00:39:07 · Mark Pincus, John Coogan
[00:39:07] S6: Well, I think that we have idea veins or instinct veins. And so there's a zone that you have an instinct around. And then I have this framework proven better new, which is a way to kind of de risk that and keep ourselves out of trouble. So it's like, just narrow down where your idea is new or novel, and wherever it's not, look for what's already proven and copy it. And and people like Nikita Behr have really, really been good at that. And, you know, there he's done kind of the same product over and over again, and it's worked each time. So I think that at least means you're not gonna feel for the wrong reason, and you get a lot more shots on goal. And in consumer, even much more than enterprise, it really is if you test more ideas in a week than the industry you're in contests in a year, you probably have a four or 5x advantage, higher odds of success. And I'll also say that the reality in consumer is where you see traction, there's a good idea, and where you don't see traction is not a good idea. That might sound kind of dumb, but I find in consumer, you're better off backing an unproven entrepreneur who's found, for whatever reason, product market fit than a proven entrepreneur like me with no product market fit. And that's just, you know, that's an unfortunate reality. [00:40:45] S1: I have a bunch of questions.