The Big Tech Show
00:07:26 · Barry Ward, Adrian Weckler, S2
[00:07:26] S4: Yeah. And I totally understand why she doesn't want it because it goes to the root of what their product is. But you can't place the obligation for national security on corporate interests because those two things don't always align. [00:07:39] S5: You mentioned Meredith Whittaker. So this is another thing that Meredith Whittaker, who we've had on this podcast a couple of times, has said and Tim Cook has said. Tim Cook came into this building, about just over ten years ago. He gave a series of interviews with us. And one of the things I was asking him about then was encryption because at the time, the UK government... I think it was under Cameron, David Cameron, who was the latest, effort by our sovereign government to get them to break iMessage because they wanted to be able to get in to see what bad guys were doing. The US does that all all the time or they seek that all the time. And Tim Cook told us that if The UK forced him to do that, he would pull iMessage from The UK. Yeah. Signal has said if something like EU chat control were to go forward in its unadulterated form, they would pull Signal from the EU. So, like, that... That's kinda hardball. And I have to say, up until this point, the states have backed down. [00:08:38] S2: Yeah. They have. Tried this three [00:08:40] S5: or four times, and every time, they've backed down.
00:08:40 · Adrian Weckler, Barry Ward
[00:08:40] S5: or four times, and every time, they've backed down. [00:08:42] S4: And it's really regrettable. I mean, the notion... You're right. It's hardball. And at the end of the day, we've got to decide who actually runs decisions around the security of nations in Europe, for example. Is it our national government, or is it a corporate interest? [00:08:55] S5: Then if we were so convinced that the the population or the electorate, for example, was on our side, why didn't we let them leave?
00:09:03 · Barry Ward
[00:09:03] S4: Well, I I tested? Well, I actually do think we should test it. Now we haven't gotten to that point yet here in Ireland, and it's probably something that needs to be done at the European level because the reality is the viability of something like Signal... And I use Signal, but I started using Signal when I first traveled to Ukraine after the latest iteration of the Russian invasion in May 22. And we were advised to use Signal because it was the one that couldn't be hacked by the Russians and wouldn't, you know, give certain information. So I use it to a limited extent in that regard. Signal ceases to be a globally viable product if it's only operating in North America or in The Americas or something like that. So let's not forget the power that we have as, European governments and the European administration. Signal, WhatsApp, iMessage, they don't wanna pull out of of that many consumers as they have in Europe. It might even be unpopular with the with the population, but that isn't the test. The test is, is it necessary to protect our citizens, protect our citizens from security concerns, protect our children from child sexual abuse material and exploitation? They're the questions. And if the answer is we need to be able in certain limited circumstances to break that encryption and look behind the wall, then that's the answer. And the fact that Apple might pull a product from Europe or The UK or anywhere else, that is not the countermanding balance as to whether we do it or not.
00:10:22 · Adrian Weckler, Barry Ward
[00:10:22] S5: I mean, in Ireland, if you were to suggest that an Irish government were to be the tip of the spear to get Apple to break encryption, that's not a runner, surely. [00:10:33] S4: I don't think any small country like Ireland could do it on its own, which is why I do think it needs to be done at European level. And I think there is a willingness in some companies, but... Or in some some countries to do that, but we need to act together. We're always stronger together in Europe than we are as individual companies.
00:10:49 · Adrian Weckler
[00:10:49] S5: We we will go along and support even. And just in terms of whether it's popular or unpopular, what I found really interesting was a few years ago, you might remember this, Apple had... They were trying to tighten, their own systems against child abuse material. And what they did was they introduced a change which would allow the detection of a very small specific number of known illegal imagery at the point at which it was uploaded from an iPhone to iCloud. So it was a very, very narrow single point. And there was such an outcry over it from a privacy perspective that Apple had to back down. And now Apple wanted to do that, and there was a huge outcry from its own customers. And it does seem to me that every time The UK, The US, every time a state, an elected body has gone up, on this issue and tried to put forth this idea that it ends up actually being an unpopular one. I mean, there was a poll a few weeks ago. You probably saw It was, it was, put out, I think, jointly by the Irish Council for Civil Liberties, but it it... And and it was done by an American civil rights association with strong views on this, so you take that into account. But it did suggest that there were... There was a majority... Strong majority in Ireland who when you put the issue to them, because this is what it boils down to, do you think it's worth it to fight very serious crime? Maybe the worst type of crime, child abuse. Do you think it's worth it to get into your WhatsApps to do that? And people say no.
00:12:33 · Barry Ward, Adrian Weckler
[00:12:33] S4: And two thirds of them, I think, said no Yeah. In the... In that case. But as you've correctly identified, in any survey, the question you ask, the amount in which you ask it, and the people you ask it of will dictate the actual result that you get. But even if you had a situation where two thirties... Let's say that survey is bang on the money. And and I think that the other thing in that survey is that people cited a distrust of the government and the state and future governments and and the future state in allowing them to do that. [00:13:00] S5: I mean, it's fair enough. [00:13:01] S4: I actually don't think it is. It might be in America, but it isn't here. Like, if you... I'm not saying that this is a perfect state or anything like that. But if you look at the respect that the state generally has for the constitutional requirements it has, it is defended fairly jealously by the courts. And when the government is held to account to the courts, no quarter is given in terms of whether they breach people's rights or not. They will be held to account. So people can have confidence in Cicinaire, not in individual politicians or individual ministers or even individual governments, but in the state to protect their rights because the state does that.