The Big Tech Show
00:13:01 · Barry Ward, Adrian Weckler
[00:13:01] S4: I actually don't think it is. It might be in America, but it isn't here. Like, if you... I'm not saying that this is a perfect state or anything like that. But if you look at the respect that the state generally has for the constitutional requirements it has, it is defended fairly jealously by the courts. And when the government is held to account to the courts, no quarter is given in terms of whether they breach people's rights or not. They will be held to account. So people can have confidence in Cicinaire, not in individual politicians or individual ministers or even individual governments, but in the state to protect their rights because the state does that. [00:13:31] S5: But as this is not an example, the way I would think about this would be that it's almost a sign of a strong democracy where a right can exist such as a strong privacy, even an absolute privacy right, even when you know that it's going to be abused, and you know that some bad things or terrible things are gonna, come as a result of that, that overall, when everything is taken into consideration, you can still defend that right? [00:14:00] S4: I don't think that's the measure of the strength of a democracy. I think No. [00:14:04] S5: No. But I [00:14:04] S4: think No. But I mean, [00:14:05] S5: there's one of the measures [00:14:06] S4: of destruction. But there's no right that's absolute. You know? And this is something where, like [00:14:10] S5: Well, no. Sorry. There... I mean, there are. You've you've... Even in Ireland, you have an absolute right to life.
00:14:10 · Adrian Weckler, Barry Ward
[00:14:10] S5: Well, no. Sorry. There... I mean, there are. You've you've... Even in Ireland, you have an absolute right to life. [00:14:15] S4: You don't. Well... Well, if you and I get in a row Yeah. And you're about to kill me, and I kill you to stop you from killing me [00:14:21] S5: Yes. [00:14:21] S4: That's a lawful killing. [00:14:22] S5: Yes. It is. [00:14:23] S4: So it's not... You don't have an absolute right to your life in those circumstances. So there's no such thing as any absolute right. Every right is tempered by the rights of other people and other things. Yeah. But the So Yeah. Sorry. I know that's a philosophical argument, but you are doing the same thing. You're balancing the right to privacy of an individual against the right of society to be safe or children to be safe or whichever group [00:14:43] S5: Well, then in that case then, why don't we... And I... This is not a facetious question. Why don't we have, cameras in domestic homes? Because we know, for example, that, for example, domestic violence is a terrible crime. Murder is a terrible crime. We know that, we would be able to cut a lot of that out if we had more surveillance and more cameras. Why don't we do that if [00:15:08] S4: Well, again, it comes back to the balance. Is that a reasonable balancing of the rights of the privacy of the household to the rights of society to protect individuals from murder? And by the way, murders happen on camera all the time. It doesn't mean because you put cameras in a home that it'll stop domestic violence.
00:15:08 · Barry Ward, Adrian Weckler
[00:15:08] S4: Well, again, it comes back to the balance. Is that a reasonable balancing of the rights of the privacy of the household to the rights of society to protect individuals from murder? And by the way, murders happen on camera all the time. It doesn't mean because you put cameras in a home that it'll stop domestic violence. [00:15:23] S5: Protect them. I mean, I remember when we were talking when we were talking about e scooters, and it's a completely different topic, but the the example we use there was with cars. You don't ban cars even though you know... We know that this year, there will be over a hundred deaths only because of cars. We know that over a hundred people will, yeah, will lose their lives. There'll be terrible bereavements. Cars are useful. And we make the very, very, I don't know, cold, brutal, but pragmatic assessment that it's worth having cars in our society even though we know [00:16:00] S4: I think it's worth people will kill. I think it's worse than that. That's not the choice we make. We make decision not just to have cars, but to have cars that are not speed limited. We make the decision to have cars that don't have monitors on them to see what speed they're doing, where they are, all that kind of thing. So there are other decisions that were made.
00:16:00 · Barry Ward, Adrian Weckler
[00:16:00] S4: I think it's worth people will kill. I think it's worse than that. That's not the choice we make. We make decision not just to have cars, but to have cars that are not speed limited. We make the decision to have cars that don't have monitors on them to see what speed they're doing, where they are, all that kind of thing. So there are other decisions that were made. [00:16:16] S5: I mean, you would... You... I think you would agree in general, that is what society has settled on. Yes. That's what we want. And so if you bring it back to something like my right to message you or your right to call me, the idea that that call or that text message channel could be open to the guards or the company for various reasons, even albeit to to fight crime, society so far has settled that it's not worth it. [00:16:45] S4: Well, I don't agree that that's what we're talking about. So for example, when I talk about the the looking behind the curtain as it were, it's got to be in a really strictly controlled limited circumstance. So there would have to be a really solid basis for them to be able to intercept the messages between you and me. That can't be just like, don't like Weckler, don't like Ward, whatever it is, or I wanna see what Ward has to say about something. That's not a basis. [00:17:09] S5: Well, do have some examples of the guards, you know, abusing their own processes for their own Yeah.
00:17:16 · Barry Ward
[00:17:16] S4: And no institution is perfect. No two ways about that, but you can put in place safeguards. So for example, one of the examples I often use is the pulse system. The the guard, IT system that records all the information about every interaction you have with the guards, includes intelligence, times you've been arrested, or anything like that. When that system was established, first of all, in the late nineteen nineties, it had no safeguards attached to it. And so, for example, you had a situation where individuals might check someone out, might check their daughter's boyfriend out, or might check a potential tenant out or something like that, totally in breach of what the system was originally put in place for. Now you have a situation where any guard who opens Adrian Weckler's profile on Pulse, there is a digital signature for that fact, and he or she must be able to account for why they did that. So the situation can evolve, and you can put safeguards in place to ensure that there is protection of your rights and that you don't have a situation where an individual guard is overstepping the mark. Usually, the way we do that is with the intervention of the judiciary. So for example, at the moment, if guard of Barry Ward wants to search, suspected offender Adrian Weckler's house, he goes to court, and he sets out for the judge. Here's why I think I need to have this search. And he has to satisfy that judge what his evidence is, where he got it from, why it's material, and why that is the only course of action that he should be taking to search your house. So that is the the check and balance that is there, and we can do that in relation to going through an encryption as well.
00:18:48 · Joe Molloy, S2, S3, Adrian Weckler, Barry Ward
[00:18:48] S1: Hey there. We are Indo Sport with me, Joe Aloy, and we have things like this. [00:18:52] S2: How do you support the IRA when they get [00:18:53] S3: this money? No. It's just I support the IRA's cause they end British rule in Ireland, and I still believe there shouldn't be British rule in Ireland as an Irish person. Yeah. What I don't support and will never support is the killing of innocent lives on no matter where. I just don't... I don't I don't agree with that. I will never agree with that. [00:19:21] S5: If we went along this path and decided that was the more pragmatic approach for the defense of society and to fight crime. And a year or two years or three year hence... Three years hence, we found that we had actually been under surveillance, all that time, or there were gangs in North Korea or Cambodia or China or Russia or America or The UK or Israel who had rifled through our stuff and were selling it on the dark web, would you feel differently about it? [00:19:54] S4: Would I feel differently insofar as do I... I mean, if you establish this as a necessity for something, that's one thing. [00:20:00] S5: But if if the warnings if the warnings that are coming... That are there now, that if you dilute encryption, you're going to have an irreparable security risk that will absolutely inevitably be exploited. If it does get exploited, how would we feel about doing this?