00:34:40 · Shensi Ding, Molly O'Shea
[00:34:40] S2: But yeah, we've really taken a lot of inspiration from what he, like what he said about beginners mind for our [00:34:58] S1: good answer. Yeah. Wow. How'd you come up with that? So I guess, like, because you guys are so close to the metal, and you understand everything that's been evolving with APIs. Can you explain how that market has evolved? And do you think more companies are going to take the headless approach? [00:35:16] S2: I think you have to, because I think a lot of times, not for all software, but for some software, like you're not going to have time to make a decision for what vendor to use. We noticed this with packages a lot, also in Cloud Code, scarily, but like, you know, it'll just decide which is the best package to for your product. And so they you'll probably end up picking vendors based off of that as well. And so I think you have to do that in order to compete. You need to make it easy for people to sign up, create accounts, pay as much as possible because not everyone's going to want to meet with someone. There are exceptions, of course, like infrastructure, security products, like someone will want to It's still a trust based business where you want to meet with someone, want to gauge how trustworthy someone is and if you can really rely on them. But for a lot of like very simple use cases, yeah, don't, you get an agent, an agent can make the choice.
00:36:00 · Gil Feig
[00:36:00] S0: And also headless really removes a lot of the barrier of learning any new platform, like even Salesforce, which isn't necessarily a technical platform. Like you, I can remember the first time going in and being like, what is an opportunity? I just don't grasp this concept makes no sense Yeah. To But like, technically, let's say you want to have this, this whole business that you're running, you know, you are the one person company that's the next unicorn or whatever. You can't be knowing the intricacies of your hosting platform and of Salesforce and of everything, but you need all that stuff and you need those functions going. But, know, and Lovable is a great example, right? Like you have your site, Lovable deploys it, it gets it running in the cloud. Maybe it's not like infinitely scalable, but it works. There's no reason that you shouldn't be able to tell an agent, you know, locally, go build this thing. And it deploys it to AWS in a very scalable way or to Cloudflare in a very scalable way. Like everything can just be built and done by a local agent without you needing to know how any of it functions, Just using using sort of headless integrations all from one central agent.
00:36:59 · Molly O'Shea, Shensi Ding
[00:36:59] S1: Shanti, you mentioned like a really interesting thing when you were describing Salesforce. And I don't know, maybe it changes with this wave of companies, but in the AI world, like everyone is so AI build, but it is evolving so fast. You guys made a concerted effort again to like rebuild and pivot towards these new opportunities. But how do you see that playing out, especially because you've, been founding companies for a while? Like, how do you see this next generation evolve? Like, do you think people will be able to adapt like that? [00:37:30] S2: I just think I think it'll be hard. Like, I think right now it's very much easy mode for a lot of these companies, but every year from what we've seen, we started a company in 2020 and I hear everyone says the year they started is the hardest year, but when we started in 2020, it was peak COVID and we fundraised when people weren't even used to doing Zoom meetings. That was very hard. And then the year after, like then, like everyone was fundraising crazy, year after everyone died. And then after that, like then it became just like crazy again. And so, yeah, I just think you need to really learn how to adjust regardless of what happens with the market. I think Betting off is really good at it. I think a lot of these people are not going to be used to that. [00:38:05] S1: Can you tell when you're looking at companies or you're like seeing them online, like which ones are figuring it or not?
00:38:05 · Molly O'Shea, Shensi Ding
[00:38:05] S1: Can you tell when you're looking at companies or you're like seeing them online, like which ones are figuring it or not? [00:38:12] S2: I think I think the best way to succeed is to just do things. And I think if you over intellectualize your company building instead of actually doing anything, you're too high on Maslow's hierarchy. And that means that you're not actually able to suffer later. [00:38:25] S1: So we talked about this a little bit off camera, but we were talking about talent and recruiting. And you were saying some of your best hires came like off cycle, not through like fundraisers and that kind of thing. What do you look for in talent? What are those kinds of traits?
00:38:25 · Molly O'Shea, Shensi Ding
[00:38:25] S1: So we talked about this a little bit off camera, but we were talking about talent and recruiting. And you were saying some of your best hires came like off cycle, not through like fundraisers and that kind of thing. What do you look for in talent? What are those kinds of traits? [00:38:41] S2: I mean, you have to actually be interested in what we're building. Like if you're only joining because you think you're really hot, it's gonna be easy, or you think you're just gonna only make a lot of money and you can just coast, that's just not the company that we are. And for most companies, that's just not a great fit. So it's really just like hiring missionaries versus mercenaries and filtering for that. And it and it is hard. Like, think during, like, the peer like, the more upfront you are about how hard it is to do company building, the more you're able to weed out the people that are just trying to coast and just, like, ride on your coattails and not do anything. But yeah, I mean, is hard and like, it's interesting to see like all these like people joining bouncing from company to company to company where they think will be really easy because once something gets hard, they're just gonna abandon you. [00:39:24] S1: It's a common I know. [00:39:25] S2: Christina Cordova had a really great tweet about this, but I I totally agree. Like, you just you see those people and, they have really great resumes, but they're just not on your they're not on [00:39:34] S1: the boat. What was her tweet?
00:39:34 · Molly O'Shea, Shensi Ding, Gil Feig
[00:39:34] S1: the boat. What was her tweet? [00:39:36] S2: I forget what they exactly was, but it was basically just, like it was after one really hot company was going through a tough time. And like a lot of they were people were starting to leave. And it was basically just like, yeah, when like, when you've like, hire these people just because you're really hot, like, they're just forget the exact I don't know. I don't remember what it was, but I don't know if it really resonated with me. Don't know you find it. [00:39:55] S1: It's shiny object syndrome. Yeah. [00:39:58] S0: You, you find it, you see it a lot too in interview processes where you're talking to someone who's just like, I'm, I, you know, I'm interviewing currently only with top hyper growth companies and, I want to de risk with every single question I ask. I want to understand how I basically have this like high risk, high, or sorry, low risk, high reward situation, which just doesn't come often. So those, those are the people that we try to weed out pretty quickly too. [00:40:20] S2: Yeah. Also interestingly, like some, some candidates will be like, oh, like, what is your cash burn? Like, you're not spending a lot, but I also want like a real one percentile salary. [00:40:28] S1: Oh my God. [00:40:30] S2: How are you to get that? Like, Oh [00:40:31] S1: my God. What are the craziest asks that you've had? [00:40:35] S2: I mean We [00:40:37] S0: we've had oh, so we had someone. We were [00:40:38] S2: like Oh, we okay. Yeah. So, like, people wanna just, like, join the exec team with, like, no experience.