00:07:28 · Immad Akhund
[00:07:28] S0: Like, is that nature or nurture? I really don't know. Like, I have three kids, and a lot of their personality seems like it's genetic. Like, I don't, I raise them relatively similarly, and they're all three so different. So there's definitely an element that you just get. But I do think, like, you know, things like sports, things like being an immigrant, because you don't take anything for granted as an immigrant. I'm like a double immigrant. My family moved from Pakistan to England, and then I moved from England to her. Like, that kinda trains you, because you just have to kinda... Yeah. Maybe it's like self justification. You're like, I've I've faced so many hard things that, like, you have to try to, like, enjoy them. So... Yeah. So I was gonna say, I think wanting and enjoying hard things is important. And I think the other one that is quite a tricky one also is, like, how... Like, what is your emotional kind of response to the events? Which I think is... I don't... Again, I don't know if you can train it, but like, you know, if if if when good things happen, you like spike up, and you're like, oh my god. I'm amazing. Blah blah blah. And if, like, you know, something bad happens and you spike all the way down to say, like, I give up. Like, my life's too hard. You know? Like, why my hair? All this stuff. Right? I think it's really hard if your emotional responses to events are, like, too positive or too negative. So I think you have to like try to be like a fairly steady hand. I think that's good for yourself. Like, I think, you know, my wife is actually doing a startup right now. And you know, I see her like, you know, something great happens, and she's like, oh my god, we made so many sales, etcetera. And then I'm like, you know, don't enjoy this. Like, something bad's gonna happen. And then, you know, the next week she's like... And I think like when you were like very volatile in your emotional response to this situation, I think it's actually just hard to manage life. And like, I think you have to... Like, startups are just like a roller coaster. It's very... Especially if you're doing hard things. It's very... You know, sometimes you'll feel great. And the next, like, literally the next hour, you might feel really shitty. And if you're just continuously, like, being volatile emotionally, it's...
00:09:39 · Immad Akhund, Joubin Mirzadegan
I think it's, like, really hard to have that kind of long term grit. This, like, foreshadowing that like something bad is gonna happen. [00:09:47] S1: Mhmm. Like, why is that? Like, why is something bad always gonna happen? Like like, why is it that you
00:09:52 · Immad Akhund
[00:09:52] S0: Well, because you're doing hard things. Part of doing hard things is like some percentage of them don't work out. Right? Like, actually, one of the funny things at Mercury is we've never really had like a super easy fundraise. Is that true? I mean, okay. I should I should caveat this. We've always had a term sheet within three weeks. Maybe you would consider that not not that bad. But it's always been like... It's never been like 10 term sheets within three weeks. It's always been like two or something like that. And partly, it's because I always push for, like, the best firms and the highest valuations, like some combo of, like, all the best terms. But either way, at any one round, I could make it very easy for myself by just saying, I don't care about the VC, or I don't care about the terms, and it would be easy. But because I deliberately make it the right way to do a fundraise is to get most people to say no, in my opinion. Otherwise, you haven't priced it right to some extent. Right? I'm sure there's some exceptions in the AI world. But I think this is like... My general view on things is like, if you're pushing the envelope, if you're launching products that might fail, if you're, you know, don't know, trying to hire someone that's like kind of a reach for you to hire, you're gonna get no's. So there's gonna be things that get you... You know, and most of these things, like, you're putting so much heart into it, right? Like when you're launching a new product, or when you're fundraising, or when you're hiring. All of these things, you need to put a lot of energy into it as an entrepreneur. So, there's always gonna be hard things. I don't think there's a... I mean, maybe there's a way to do startups without having hard things, but at least if you're like going for it. Right? Like, I think, yeah, if you're going... Try to be like 10x next year and all of this kinda, you know, pushing forward all the time, which I think you kinda have to have that energy to really succeed in the startup world, you're gonna get a lot of like, disappointment along the way.
00:11:43 · Joubin Mirzadegan, Immad Akhund
[00:11:43] S1: In your experience, does the disappointment harder... Hardship get harder or easier as time goes on? [00:11:49] S0: I I definitely think there's a switch between, like, how existential the startup is? Sorry, let me be precise. When you are not profitable, and like, your hard things can kill you as a startup, I think it's much harder. Like, we've been profitable for four years now. It's it's rare [00:12:09] S1: these days. [00:12:10] S0: And I think... And in my previous company, we were not profitable for six years. In the last two years, we were profitable. I think it's a very different mindset between the two. Like, when you're waking up every morning and like, you're like, what's my runway? Like, the number's, like, shrinking, right, every day. Yeah. And you feel like... Even when you're doing well, I've... It's... There's just this kinda level of existential dread that you get from, like, a bank account going to zero that you don't don't feel afterwards. So I think that's definitely a turning point in my experience. But it never goes away. I mean, I think even if you're profitable, you're trying to push harder, you're trying to grow faster. So yeah, I think it's always there, but it definitely gets less work. I think the main way I've changed is I've got better at handling it for sure. Mhmm. [00:13:01] S1: Earlier when we started talking and you're asking me about Roadrunner and I said, you know, we're... We've grown out of two offices now and Yeah. So it must be working. You know, that's like one of the things that scares me right now
00:13:01 · Joubin Mirzadegan, Immad Akhund
[00:13:01] S1: Earlier when we started talking and you're asking me about Roadrunner and I said, you know, we're... We've grown out of two offices now and Yeah. So it must be working. You know, that's like one of the things that scares me right now [00:13:16] S0: Mhmm. [00:13:17] S1: And not just my company, but like generally in companies, is that we are using yardsticks like people growth. Sure. It's like the easiest proxy to explain to somebody if you don't want to share like revenue. Yeah. But it's like kind of the, I don't know, maybe like, it feels like the fake game on the field. Yeah. It's like all, it's like a little bit better than like how much have you raised, but but not as satisfying as like how much money have you made. [00:13:52] S0: Mhmm. You know? Like it's so... [00:13:54] S1: I'm curious what you think of that.
00:13:57 · Immad Akhund
[00:13:57] S0: Honestly, used to be worse. It used to be all about number of employees. Now, I think it's actually changed a little bit where, you know, teams are much more nimble. You you don't necessarily learn as much as you used to from number of employees. I mean, I think it's... I don't think it's all negative. I think... At least, when I'm talking to an like, I kinda wanna be helpful. Yeah. And like, it's just a... You know, if you're just starting out with two people, it's just like a different conversation. Like, I don't have enough context. So I don't think it's bad to like, try to like, gauge the person. Yeah. Honestly, I feel like people are a lot more honest than used to be. Like, people... Obviously, we're in a podcast, you know, but outside these situations, people share revenue numbers quite a lot. Yeah. And I find that the whole startup ecosystem has become a lot more open with metrics and things like that, in a way. And maybe it's like the conversations I have or something, but you know, I feel like ten years ago, no one used to ever talk about revenue. Was almost like a not safe thing to talk about. Now, you know, we see people talking about revenue online all the time. It's become a lot more common thing. And I think there's maybe a separate element to this, is like, you know, there is this kind of one side of the Silicon Valley ecosystem that's about like, hey, we're doing big things that change the world and improve the world, etcetera. And then this other side of it, it's just like, I'm trying to build a big company and go sell it and make... You know, become like a millionaire, billionaire, whatever it is. So I think there is like some tension there, and it swings, you know, just... I don't know if you're at the top of the bubble or whatever, but we're we're definitely in the hype cycle. Mhmm. And the swing in the hype cycle is much more towards, like, money and people who care about money and, like, those elements. And then, you know, when it when it will change, and it will change probably at some point, it will be once again a little bit more about, like, what are we doing to improve lives? I personally like the other cycle a little bit more than this cycle. I like it when we're doing things. It kinda goes back to Grit as well.