00:09:00 · Matteo Danieli
[00:09:00] S1: Look, it embarrasses me a little bit to think back about those times because in any way it's also sweet, but we were so naive. We didn't know anything about business, about tech even. We just had this very strong desire to build something together. So that's where it started. We didn't have mentors. We didn't have advisors. Copenhagen, which is where we started our first company, had a quite vibrant startup scene, we hadn't entered it quite yet. So it was us with the idea that we kind of liked each other, we wanted to do something together. We had this dream that we shared that we wanted to create our own company. And then it was more like we were fishing for ideas to support that dream. So the way it actually played out was that we had maybe two or three ideas on the table that we were discussing. Of course, we knew that it would be better if we did something with mobile or web because the barriers to entry would be lower. And honestly, think that the reason why we went for one project rather than another is because I was slightly more persuasive in bringing them on my side rather than because that idea deserved a lot. So yeah, that's how it happened. Didn't do any market research or user research, and we honestly didn't know a lot of the things that we've learned about human psychology and what it is that makes products succeed. But we were very determined. So even out of that idea Almost unstoppable, I would
00:10:38 · Luca Ferrari, Roman Kirsch
[00:10:38] S2: say, which is next level. Literally the mindset was, we'll keep going unless they shoot us down with a bazooka, literally. I don't think we ever expressed it, but the level of commitment was absolute, which I wouldn't say it's necessary to build a successful company, but almost. It's very rare that you can do that without [00:11:02] S0: having to And that's probably what kept you going afterwards because, you know, I mean, what happened to your first company, you mentioned already with Avatale, kind of is what happens to over 90% of companies that they for some reason don't work out. And that's where a lot of those stories end, right? But probably this belief, hey, bazooka belief, as you said, this is what kept you going, right? So I think maybe you could walk us through the moment when you said, hey, it didn't work out in the first step, but let's just keep going. Was that even a discussion or was it natural for you?
00:11:36 · Luca Ferrari, Roman Kirsch
[00:11:36] S2: I think it was natural and I will say the resolve was probably more important to go through the long failure of EverTail than to start Bending Spoons. I feel that we really saw being entrepreneurs, engineers, managers as a craft we wanted to master. And like a sculpture or someone who's trying to become a sculpture, a sculptor, and you probably produce pretty shitty sculptures initially and you have a vision but you come well short of that vision because your skills are not there yet. If you're passionate about the craft, then when you fail your next sculpture, you probably can't wait to try again because now you know you can do it better. And I think EverTale, this startup failing, was liberating in many ways because we could finally stop firefighting or trying to resurrect something that had no legs and start afresh with hopefully a better, more successful vision, better practices. And so I, not that we didn't have our fair share of emotional breakdowns or whatnot, because it was tough. It was, we had spent three plus years working essentially every waking hour to make it happen. So it's not easy to say, okay, we've still, we failed miserably. But it was a strong desire to try again and deploy all the lessons learned. [00:13:09] S0: So were there any doubts or concerns at this point in time or? [00:13:13] S2: Not about trying to gain. I do not remember even discussing, hey, should we maybe apply to go work at Google instead? Like, I do not remember a single conversation like that.
00:13:13 · Luca Ferrari, Matteo Danieli, Roman Kirsch
[00:13:13] S2: Not about trying to gain. I do not remember even discussing, hey, should we maybe apply to go work at Google instead? Like, I do not remember a single conversation like that. [00:13:24] S1: Which if anything, I mean, you know, that experience just gave us the feeling that that was our path. You know, if we if we had any doubt about it, we were sure about it. So... And, you know, a couple of years later, three years later, we were better positioned. We had learned things, and we knew that the next time around, we would just have more chances, you know. [00:13:43] S0: And that was the time, was that the time when you moved to Milan and started Bending Spoons? Was that kind of at the same time or?
00:13:49 · Luca Ferrari
[00:13:49] S2: Not immediately because we found the Bending Spoons in Copenhagen. We moved it to Milan about a year later, give or take, a year and a half later, when we started to expand the team. We felt we had maybe saying figured out the strategy is a little bit too much, but we felt we had a more specific vision and approach for what we wanted to do. And so the topic of where to build it came up. So we pride ourselves on being quite rational and open minded and so we thought it seems that most companies never really ponder the location topic. They just happen to be in a place. But location probably makes a fairly significant difference in your fortunes. And so we went through a proper location strategy. I remember a 10 or 15 page document we wrote with all sorts of research in different we looked at 20 or 30 locations in Canada even, I remember And ultimately picked Italy and within Italy, Milan for a couple of reasons. One was the balance of sheer number of talented and well educated people versus the opportunities they currently had was particularly favorable. And so we thought this could be a win win. We have this massive ambition. And a lot of these people probably can't wait to be part of and shape that ambition and that project. And their next alternative is a lot worse. And so we could for the company acquire fantastic talent and make the team very good and for these talent give them essentially a fantastic ride as they would give us a fantastic ride. It's really a team sport ultimately. So that was one big reason. And the second big reason and a couple of countries you could make similar claims but when it was a tie, us being Italian it was just easier. We knew some of the universities, we understood the culture a little bit better. On the margins that made the difference you could have said similar things of France for example at the time. Today France is more developed but I think at the time that would have been true. The second reason was we had this ambition to build a company for the ages, one of the most successful companies in the world of our generation. Not that we thought we would succeed but that was the goal. And we thought, okay, if we fail, failing in Copenhagen or Milan or Paris or New York is basically the same. Nobody cares.
00:16:22 · Luca Ferrari, Roman Kirsch
But if we were to succeed, even partially relative to that big ambition, doing it from a place that hasn't seen a whole lot of success in general in entrepreneurship, certainly in tech for like forever could make a very big impact in terms of inspiration, kind of igniting a virtuous cycle of economic growth, cultural advancement. When I say cultural, don't mean like the liberal arts, but more again entrepreneurship and believing you can build interesting things. And Italy was particularly appealing place in that regard because again, it was one or two steps behind some other countries that had potential. And so we picked it. We haven't looked back. We're a very international company now. We have an office in London and people all over the planet, including The US. But trying to build a super successful massive global company with roots in Europe in general because you can make a similar argument for Europe overall and Italy also was a very motivating for us. [00:17:28] S0: No and I mean probably there's a lot of... You're the local heroes here, right? Now looking back kind of versus ten [00:17:35] S2: years Well, ones because you know what we learned is that when you succeed, before nobody [00:17:40] S0: Yeah, us both, right? But at least you polarize. You're hurt. [00:17:44] S2: Exactly. Initially nobody cares either way and then either they love you too much or they hate you too much. Like there's no middle ground.