01:13:29 · John Coogan, Alex Spiro, Jordi Hays
[01:13:29] S1: Mhmm. [01:13:29] S2: It is impacted and persuaded by certain things. There are argumentative techniques that work and some that don't, and those human beings in the jury are not changing based on AI. And so I'm gonna talk to them exactly the same way. It just may be that the people that get me the information that I distill into my arguments, there needs to be fewer of them or they have a simpler more linear path in getting me that information because they have technological tools that make it faster, sleeker. [01:14:01] S0: Yeah. How have you processed how have you processed AI progress? Like, have we solved this... Like, are we still hallucinating court, you know, cases that didn't exist? Yeah. You know, pulling evidence that's made up? Or or was that the same kind of thing that people were experiencing with chatbots three years ago? They were experiencing with with law, but but it it's solved. [01:14:24] S2: I'm no expert on this. I think that case law is one thing, right, which may still have these kinks. [01:14:31] S0: Mhmm.
01:14:31 · Jordi Hays, Alex Spiro, John Coogan
[01:14:31] S0: Mhmm. [01:14:33] S2: Distilling documents and pulling information from the document strikes me as not something that's so susceptible to a mistake. Mhmm. So right, if I if I put a police report file into the into the widget, and it tells me detective Lam surfaced three times in this case January 3, January 8, and January 12. I doubt that's wrong. I doubt that's Yeah. Hallucinated based on my understanding of where the machine learning is at this point. So it... That factual analysis is gonna work in streamlining and getting me answers to questions that I make people run down all day when I'm investigating something or trying something. In terms of the case law, listen if they're making up case law or imagines case law hallucinates, the the team that works besides me needs to double check everything and they do to make sure there's no hallucinations. [01:15:27] S1: Are you are you worried about clients becoming overconfident in the in the era of AI? There's this article on the cover of the Wall Street Journal today. Divorce lawyers to clients break up with AI because this this family lawyer drafted a prenup and then his client sent him 13 pages of revisions based... It was clearly he just dumped it in his chatbot and sent it back to his lawyer and was like, I'm the expert now. And then the lawyer had to say, like, actually, like, we did things a certain way and we had more context here. But are you worried about that, like the armchair quarterbacking getting worse?
01:15:27 · John Coogan, Alex Spiro, Jordi Hays
[01:15:27] S1: Are you are you worried about clients becoming overconfident in the in the era of AI? There's this article on the cover of the Wall Street Journal today. Divorce lawyers to clients break up with AI because this this family lawyer drafted a prenup and then his client sent him 13 pages of revisions based... It was clearly he just dumped it in his chatbot and sent it back to his lawyer and was like, I'm the expert now. And then the lawyer had to say, like, actually, like, we did things a certain way and we had more context here. But are you worried about that, like the armchair quarterbacking getting worse? [01:16:03] S2: I I represent almost exclusively clients that think that they know more about the law. It's it's my specialty. Yeah. [01:16:12] S0: Yeah. Yeah. [01:16:14] S2: There we go. And so I'm very used to this. I mean, I I represented lots of CEOs, world leaders and things when I was in my thirties Yeah. And had to deal with like, what do you know basically as I was representing them. Was like, well you picked me and you asked me to come here. So Yeah. You know, I didn't insist on coming to this meeting. That's part of it. Know, people armchair doctors, they armchair lawyers. [01:16:36] S1: Mhmm.
01:16:36 · John Coogan, Alex Spiro, Jordi Hays
[01:16:36] S1: Mhmm. [01:16:37] S2: I I think that the old adage of the Goldman Sachs days was you know, you shouldn't be picking your own stocks. Well, you shouldn't be picking your own legal arguments and and picking your own medical procedures. And since the time of Socrates, we have learned that we are not great advocates for ourselves. That we ought to rely on somebody that has some emotional independence from us that can use judgment, that can make the arguments the way they ought to be made because we're... We can be myopic and they're not professionals. So Mhmm. It... I have said to many many clients, probably clients that have appeared on on your show, if they want to represent themselves I'll just sit here and watch. They can they can make the opening argument. That's... That usually shuts them up pretty quickly. [01:17:21] S1: No one's taking you up on that yet. [01:17:22] S0: But you you like... It seems like you like working with the difficult ones. It's not just because they're happen to be the most powerful people [01:17:29] S2: in Don't tell anybody that you're encouraging bad bad behavior. I I don't like it other than to say that some of the most amazing minds are those that are also the most complicated. [01:17:42] S1: Sure.
01:17:42 · John Coogan, Alex Spiro
[01:17:42] S1: Sure. [01:17:43] S2: And I like being around things that I think are super interesting and I'm curious. I like watching the world move forward and a lot of these folks, difficult as they may be, doing things that are exceptional and unique. And sometimes the cases themselves are just important enough that I think they are worthy of a strong and important defense. [01:18:13] S1: Yeah. How how are you meeting new people? Is it all referrals through previous clients? Are there ever... Is there ever a moment where you can see from your perspective that there's going to be a ton of litigation in AI copyright and so you're actually going out of your way to meet folks in that industry beforehand or is it all just comes in when there's a problem? [01:18:37] S2: I'm I'm closed. Okay. I am not looking for I'm not mingling and I'm not looking for nascent industries or industries that I think there's gonna be litigation explosion in. Sure. There are enough companies and people that I'm responsible for shepherding that that I'm not gonna chase people and I don't think... I don't just believe in that as a system. Whether you're a young person looking to market or you're at at you know, been in the career a long time, I just do not believe in that. The top hedge funds don't chase people. The top doctors don't chase people. I certainly don't chase people and yeah. I mean the way that referrals come in is it's word-of-mouth. [01:19:20] S1: Mhmm.
01:19:20 · John Coogan, Alex Spiro, Jordi Hays
[01:19:20] S1: Mhmm. [01:19:20] S2: Where they see you, you know, being a trial lawyer is a public thing. There's people that watched the Alec Baldwin trial or the Eric Adams or the Robert Kraft or the taboocephalousia or I can keep going. And they see you and they think he... You know, hopefully they think they can... That I conduct myself honorably and aggressively and smart. And then they say, okay, I want that guy. [01:19:39] S1: Yeah. How do you... How do the best founders think about lawsuits as a as a tool of business, as an important piece of the puzzle, you as a potential team member as opposed to like headache, something that needs to be just dealt with on the off occasion. It's something that's more in their business repertoire that they are good in this capacity. [01:20:05] S2: Some of them are more adverse to that chaos and the scariness of the war, and some of them can't get enough of it. Mhmm. And what you try to do is modulate the ones that want to sue everybody that walks the earth, and the ones that are afraid that if somebody sends a letter, we've got to shut down the company. [01:20:26] S0: Yeah.