01:06:56 · Alex Spiro, Jordi Hays, John Coogan, Apoorva Mehta
[01:06:56] S2: And you know, tell it the right way. Drew? [01:07:00] S0: From what I know, there's other law firms that that jump at the opportunity to go up against you because it's... It would be like a badge of honor, even if they're... Even if they know they're gonna get destroyed. Talk about talk about the sort of, not specific to you, but just like general industry dynamics where like The brand. A certain, you know, lawyer will develop a brand that that like is almost like a magnet for other lawyers to try to test themselves against. [01:07:30] S2: No. There's... Listen. I still save emails from cases where someone will decide I'm interested in their unsolicited advice and they will send me an email saying, know, listen. I'm a professor, I'm a you know, I'm a trial lawyer your father's age and just so know this case is unwinnable or you shouldn't be going to trial or whatever. And I still have them from various trials that they were... And they were wrong and [01:07:55] S1: Yeah. [01:07:55] S2: We won. Yeah. And I've created a cottage industry of people that used to work for me or been up against me where I'm told because you know [01:08:03] S3: a lot... It's a lot [01:08:04] S2: of my friends sort of are one degree that are then hiring people because of conflicts and whatnot, And they're like hiring people that used to work for me like they like as if they know, you know, how I take my coffee and how I prepare for trial or something. So you know, I'm aware of this Mhmm. Industry, you know, noise, but it just it it just makes it more exciting and more arena based.
01:08:04 · Alex Spiro, Jordi Hays, Apoorva Mehta, John Coogan
[01:08:04] S2: of my friends sort of are one degree that are then hiring people because of conflicts and whatnot, And they're like hiring people that used to work for me like they like as if they know, you know, how I take my coffee and how I prepare for trial or something. So you know, I'm aware of this Mhmm. Industry, you know, noise, but it just it it just makes it more exciting and more arena based. [01:08:28] S0: Yeah. Well, it's funny because like this happens with athletes. Right? [01:08:30] S2: Somebody has to win. [01:08:31] S0: Like with with athletes, you can literally watch the last 100, 200, 300 games a player has played. Right? [01:08:39] S3: Mhmm. [01:08:40] S0: And it's probably good to be prepared, but it doesn't mean that when you step into the arena that it's gonna go well for you. Right? Like, I could... There's a lot of tennis players that I could watch and I'm gonna have a very tough time against them Yeah. No [01:08:52] S1: matter How much game film you've been. [01:08:53] S0: What what advice do you give to lawyers at the firm that are early in their careers that want... That are thinking about how to build their own brands and for better or worse, like Aura. Right? Because, you know, it doesn't really make sense for somebody to just try to be like a mini version of you or a mini version of of John or or whoever it is. Or or is that... Or is is it flipped and you should just try to be exactly like you?
01:08:53 · Jordi Hays, Alex Spiro, Derek Blasberg
[01:08:53] S0: What what advice do you give to lawyers at the firm that are early in their careers that want... That are thinking about how to build their own brands and for better or worse, like Aura. Right? Because, you know, it doesn't really make sense for somebody to just try to be like a mini version of you or a mini version of of John or or whoever it is. Or or is that... Or is is it flipped and you should just try to be exactly like you? [01:09:20] S2: No. Don't don't do that. Don't do that. No. I tell them be yourself. You know, it's it's it's a sort of sounds like a cliche, but it's true. You know, when somebody is intimidating and can act a certain way and bark, it works for them if they are in fact intimidating. If you're not intimidating, start acting like that. You look you look like you're trying to do something you're not. You look at a character. And and listen, there are many ways to be effective. There are quiet, soft spoken, methodical trial lawyers. It doesn't have to be, you know, the barbarian at the gate. And then if you are true to yourself, if you stay in that character and you win cases Mhmm. That's a good way to develop a reputation. [01:10:00] S4: Mhmm. Right?
01:10:00 · Derek Blasberg, Alex Spiro, Jordi Hays, John Coogan
[01:10:00] S4: Mhmm. Right? [01:10:01] S2: I mean it it's it's really not a complicated formula. When I left being a prosecutor, these these... I I mean I always have to tell these stories, there was one guy who came and he's like, well I need to see your business plan. And I and I don't have a business. I told him. I said, I'm just gonna just be myself and I'm gonna win cases. That's that's the plan. I mean, there's no... That's the plan. [01:10:19] S0: Mhmm. So, yeah. Best way to build a personal brand is to be really great at your craft and win a lot. Don't worry about anything Well, [01:10:28] S2: what I was gonna say before and I'll I'll say it here, which is it's a unique profession when there is a winner and a loser of each battle. Mhmm. You know, and and that's... That allows the, you know, [01:10:38] S1: But what about... [01:10:39] S2: That allows people... [01:10:40] S1: What about like so many of cases they just get settled and both sides can kind of claim victory or there's fear of victories... [01:10:48] S0: Feel like they lost. [01:10:50] S1: Or both sides really lost like how often do you actually feel like you got the full victory? [01:10:56] S2: If I'm going all the way, I think I have to go all the way for [01:10:59] S1: a Yeah. Right? [01:11:01] S2: And if I don't think that I'm... You know, obviously, wouldn't settle at the point that I'm settling at or or resolve the thing at the point of resolving it at if I don't think it's the the right risk adjusted deal. [01:11:11] S1: Yeah.
01:11:11 · John Coogan, Alex Spiro
[01:11:11] S1: Yeah. [01:11:11] S2: Yeah. So why ever to... You know, you're never really losing that. If you're not afraid to go all the way and you think you you have some edge, you're either going to get a favorable outcome or the the easy way or the hard way. [01:11:23] S1: Yeah. Do do you think we're gearing up for for more cases to go to trial or more cases to settle earlier because of AI tooling, automated discovery? I don't know what else you're seeing in terms of adoption of new technology. But are there any like secular shifts you're sensing coming down the pipe or maybe you're already feeling? [01:11:49] S2: I think AI will eliminate a layer of a lot of things including including my day job. And by eliminating that layer, it allows you to get to the truth and synthesize it faster. [01:12:03] S1: Mhmm. [01:12:04] S2: Okay? And if you can do that, then I think you can make quicker decisions on this is something to resolve, or this is something to go all the way off. Mhmm. And if you can, in maybe, the way it'll work is a lot of the fat in the middle is gonna be cut out. Cases will settle settle quickly or go to trial. Mhmm. And there won't be as much in between litigation that is pointless and [01:12:24] S1: Got it.
01:12:24 · John Coogan, Alex Spiro, Jordi Hays
[01:12:24] S1: Got it. [01:12:25] S2: And sort of ebbing between the two. Yeah. And if that happens, and maybe there are more trials frankly, because people just say, okay, this is the what... We just did an analysis of these 10 cases, these nine should settle, this one shouldn't. Mhmm. We're going all the way, and then people don't get that nervousness that they get. Where some companies, they'll think in their mind, okay, these three are gonna have to be tried, but then they end up caving because they're too risk adverse. [01:12:47] S1: Yeah. Yeah. And then and then in terms of actually at trial, how... Are are you gonna be more focused on a particular a particular piece of an argument or or or arguments gonna be more narrow or more broad because you you you can you can fan out easier and it's lower cost to find every possible point to argue or is that less relevant to a jury so you want to be more focused? How will that change? [01:13:12] S2: I haven't changed my approach to trying cases or how to present in front of a jury in twenty years. [01:13:18] S1: Okay. [01:13:18] S2: Like, I don't even think I've toggled [01:13:20] S1: One thing. Slightly. [01:13:21] S0: Yeah. [01:13:22] S2: Yeah. So the human mind and the and the human mind when it is learning can only follow so many things. [01:13:29] S1: Mhmm.