01:11:11 · John Coogan, Alex Spiro
[01:11:11] S1: Yeah. [01:11:11] S2: Yeah. So why ever to... You know, you're never really losing that. If you're not afraid to go all the way and you think you you have some edge, you're either going to get a favorable outcome or the the easy way or the hard way. [01:11:23] S1: Yeah. Do do you think we're gearing up for for more cases to go to trial or more cases to settle earlier because of AI tooling, automated discovery? I don't know what else you're seeing in terms of adoption of new technology. But are there any like secular shifts you're sensing coming down the pipe or maybe you're already feeling? [01:11:49] S2: I think AI will eliminate a layer of a lot of things including including my day job. And by eliminating that layer, it allows you to get to the truth and synthesize it faster. [01:12:03] S1: Mhmm. [01:12:04] S2: Okay? And if you can do that, then I think you can make quicker decisions on this is something to resolve, or this is something to go all the way off. Mhmm. And if you can, in maybe, the way it'll work is a lot of the fat in the middle is gonna be cut out. Cases will settle settle quickly or go to trial. Mhmm. And there won't be as much in between litigation that is pointless and [01:12:24] S1: Got it.
01:12:24 · John Coogan, Alex Spiro, Jordi Hays
[01:12:24] S1: Got it. [01:12:25] S2: And sort of ebbing between the two. Yeah. And if that happens, and maybe there are more trials frankly, because people just say, okay, this is the what... We just did an analysis of these 10 cases, these nine should settle, this one shouldn't. Mhmm. We're going all the way, and then people don't get that nervousness that they get. Where some companies, they'll think in their mind, okay, these three are gonna have to be tried, but then they end up caving because they're too risk adverse. [01:12:47] S1: Yeah. Yeah. And then and then in terms of actually at trial, how... Are are you gonna be more focused on a particular a particular piece of an argument or or or arguments gonna be more narrow or more broad because you you you can you can fan out easier and it's lower cost to find every possible point to argue or is that less relevant to a jury so you want to be more focused? How will that change? [01:13:12] S2: I haven't changed my approach to trying cases or how to present in front of a jury in twenty years. [01:13:18] S1: Okay. [01:13:18] S2: Like, I don't even think I've toggled [01:13:20] S1: One thing. Slightly. [01:13:21] S0: Yeah. [01:13:22] S2: Yeah. So the human mind and the and the human mind when it is learning can only follow so many things. [01:13:29] S1: Mhmm.
01:13:29 · John Coogan, Alex Spiro, Jordi Hays
[01:13:29] S1: Mhmm. [01:13:29] S2: It is impacted and persuaded by certain things. There are argumentative techniques that work and some that don't, and those human beings in the jury are not changing based on AI. And so I'm gonna talk to them exactly the same way. It just may be that the people that get me the information that I distill into my arguments, there needs to be fewer of them or they have a simpler more linear path in getting me that information because they have technological tools that make it faster, sleeker. [01:14:01] S0: Yeah. How have you processed how have you processed AI progress? Like, have we solved this... Like, are we still hallucinating court, you know, cases that didn't exist? Yeah. You know, pulling evidence that's made up? Or or was that the same kind of thing that people were experiencing with chatbots three years ago? They were experiencing with with law, but but it it's solved. [01:14:24] S2: I'm no expert on this. I think that case law is one thing, right, which may still have these kinks. [01:14:31] S0: Mhmm.
01:14:31 · Jordi Hays, Alex Spiro, John Coogan
[01:14:31] S0: Mhmm. [01:14:33] S2: Distilling documents and pulling information from the document strikes me as not something that's so susceptible to a mistake. Mhmm. So right, if I if I put a police report file into the into the widget, and it tells me detective Lam surfaced three times in this case January 3, January 8, and January 12. I doubt that's wrong. I doubt that's Yeah. Hallucinated based on my understanding of where the machine learning is at this point. So it... That factual analysis is gonna work in streamlining and getting me answers to questions that I make people run down all day when I'm investigating something or trying something. In terms of the case law, listen if they're making up case law or imagines case law hallucinates, the the team that works besides me needs to double check everything and they do to make sure there's no hallucinations. [01:15:27] S1: Are you are you worried about clients becoming overconfident in the in the era of AI? There's this article on the cover of the Wall Street Journal today. Divorce lawyers to clients break up with AI because this this family lawyer drafted a prenup and then his client sent him 13 pages of revisions based... It was clearly he just dumped it in his chatbot and sent it back to his lawyer and was like, I'm the expert now. And then the lawyer had to say, like, actually, like, we did things a certain way and we had more context here. But are you worried about that, like the armchair quarterbacking getting worse?
01:15:27 · John Coogan, Alex Spiro, Jordi Hays
[01:15:27] S1: Are you are you worried about clients becoming overconfident in the in the era of AI? There's this article on the cover of the Wall Street Journal today. Divorce lawyers to clients break up with AI because this this family lawyer drafted a prenup and then his client sent him 13 pages of revisions based... It was clearly he just dumped it in his chatbot and sent it back to his lawyer and was like, I'm the expert now. And then the lawyer had to say, like, actually, like, we did things a certain way and we had more context here. But are you worried about that, like the armchair quarterbacking getting worse? [01:16:03] S2: I I represent almost exclusively clients that think that they know more about the law. It's it's my specialty. Yeah. [01:16:12] S0: Yeah. Yeah. [01:16:14] S2: There we go. And so I'm very used to this. I mean, I I represented lots of CEOs, world leaders and things when I was in my thirties Yeah. And had to deal with like, what do you know basically as I was representing them. Was like, well you picked me and you asked me to come here. So Yeah. You know, I didn't insist on coming to this meeting. That's part of it. Know, people armchair doctors, they armchair lawyers. [01:16:36] S1: Mhmm.
01:16:36 · John Coogan, Alex Spiro, Jordi Hays
[01:16:36] S1: Mhmm. [01:16:37] S2: I I think that the old adage of the Goldman Sachs days was you know, you shouldn't be picking your own stocks. Well, you shouldn't be picking your own legal arguments and and picking your own medical procedures. And since the time of Socrates, we have learned that we are not great advocates for ourselves. That we ought to rely on somebody that has some emotional independence from us that can use judgment, that can make the arguments the way they ought to be made because we're... We can be myopic and they're not professionals. So Mhmm. It... I have said to many many clients, probably clients that have appeared on on your show, if they want to represent themselves I'll just sit here and watch. They can they can make the opening argument. That's... That usually shuts them up pretty quickly. [01:17:21] S1: No one's taking you up on that yet. [01:17:22] S0: But you you like... It seems like you like working with the difficult ones. It's not just because they're happen to be the most powerful people [01:17:29] S2: in Don't tell anybody that you're encouraging bad bad behavior. I I don't like it other than to say that some of the most amazing minds are those that are also the most complicated. [01:17:42] S1: Sure.