Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
00:38:08 · Becky Kennedy
I think that's a massive overcorrection I've seen in parenting and I just want to make it very clear that is not what we do at Good Inside, which is kind of, my kid is upset and instead of just caring about their feelings, now their feelings dictate my decisions. That's terrifying for someone on a flight. If that's me, I'm not even scared of the turbulence anymore. I'm scared that this person is my supposed leader. That's also in a meeting when you complain about things and a leader might say, Oh, okay, you know what? Okay, we'll just get consensus on this. When it's a decision, that's a leadership decision, not a consensus decision, which some decisions are, but some decisions aren't because you are the only one who has certain information. Now, to me is the third announcement that I want to hear, when it's really turbulent, is something like this. I hear everyone screaming back there, that makes sense. And you haven't been in as many flights, you're right, it's very bumpy. And I know what I'm doing. This turbulence, though it scares you, it doesn't scare me. I'm actually going to get off this loudspeaker right now to go back to do my job. I'll see you when we land in Los Angeles. Now, even if the turbulence is the same, all of a sudden I feel this deep breath, because my worry is contained. This sturdy leader is able to see my emotional experience as real for me and not be overwhelmed by it themself. Those are the two distinct aspects of being a sturdy leader. I can see someone else's experience as real for them, but I can still hold onto my experience and so I'm not overwhelmed by someone else. So to a kid, it might be saying, look, let's say TV time is over, and my kid does not [inaudible 00:39:42] in my house, when I say TV time is over, I'm turning off the TV. When my kids were younger, they didn't say, You're right, mom, that's a great decision. No. They freaked out because they wanted to watch another one. So, a sturdy leader would say in that position, I'm turning the TV off, that's my decision. I get that you're upset, I don't really like to end TV time either. I also know we'll get through it. Do your thing and then we'll transition to brushing teeth and then I kind of wait it out.
00:40:12 · Becky Kennedy, Lenny Rachitsky
Or in the workplace, someone's complaining about, I don't know, making this up, but maybe it's some policy change, vacation change, number of days in the office, where you say, look, I want to share something that I know some people are going to have a reaction to, here's the new policy. People stop [inaudible 00:40:25], complaining. Look, I get it, this is a big change and you're right. This does make things hard in a certain way, and I totally see that, and the way you're feeling makes sense. And here's some version of why we're doing it and I know we're going to get through it and I have faith in us to weather this turbulence. And I think, in every situation, kids, workplace, in laws, whatever it is, that sturdy leadership always feels good. [00:40:54] S0: This is a really good segue to something I definitely wanted to ask you about, which is this idea of boundaries, of how to set boundaries well and how that relates to long-term resilience, versus just this idea of short-term happiness. I was just yesterday watching your advice on how to set boundaries with my kid, because I struggle with it sometimes and I'm just like, What am I doing wrong? And it was extremely helpful. I started using your advice and I'm like, Wow, he's doing exactly what I wanted to do. So, there's a lot of power here. So, talk about just from your advice to parents around boundaries and this idea of long-term resilience and then how that might translate.
00:41:24 · Becky Kennedy
[00:41:24] S1: Yeah. And so, I think related to being a sturdy leader, to make it more concrete, there's two jobs we have as a parent. I think they're the same two jobs we have as any sturdy leader in any environment. And that's setting boundaries, which are limits we set, certain decisions we make. Boundaries often relate to your position of authority, where you have some long-term goal in mind that someone else in the system just isn't as aware of, or a two-year-old isn't as capable of holding onto, which is why you're in the position of making a decision. So, that's the boundaries. And the other side is, validating kids' or someone else's experience, while not being taken over by it. And I think we've moved so far in this direction of validating kids' experience, and I'll go on record and saying, validating kids' feelings is an incomplete parenting approach. That is half of our job, but it doesn't work if we're not doing the other half, which is setting boundaries, which is the skill I feel best about teaching people, because I think it's what we're often lacking. So, my definition of boundaries, I do like because it's immediately usable and testable. Boundaries are what you tell someone else you will do, and it requires the other person to do nothing. Too often I hear people say, My kid doesn't respect my boundaries. My colleague doesn't respect my boundaries. And with all due respect, I often think, I think you have an incorrect definition of boundaries. I think you're probably making a request, which by the way, we do a lot. There's nothing wrong with requests, but it's not a boundary. Because if you're setting what you call a boundary and you're really making a request, you're giving all of your power away to the other person, because you're saying the success of this important moment depends on my two-year-old. What? I'm not going to give my power to my two-year-old. And I always tell parents, I would bet on you any day over your kid, and it's not because I don't like your kid. I do like your kid. I just believe in you more. And so a good example of this, let's say, is, I have a kid, like I was describing before, who's not a people pleaser.
00:43:22 · Becky Kennedy
And so, I live in New York City, we live in a building with a lot of elevator buttons, where this kid, when he was younger, if he was left to his own devices, which had happened, he would press every elevator button, every one. And with my other kids, one of them especially, I probably would've been able to make a request like, Hey, when we go on the elevator later, it's really important not to press all the buttons. Other people wait for this elevator, it's rude, whatever it is. That's not a boundary. Because I could say, Did I tell my kid what I will do? No. Does it require my kid to do nothing? No. A boundary, would be saying, when we go into the elevator, I'm going to stand between you and the button, sweetie, because I'm not going to let you press the buttons, because other people are waiting. And if you have a kid like my kid, they're going to lunge for it anyway. And then I would block my kid, because I'm ready and I've done a workout, my muscles are ready. I'm not going to let you do that. Now, my kid might get upset, which allows me to do the other part of my jobs. Oh, I know you wish you could press those buttons or maybe just look kindly toward him and not say anything, but I'm going to still hold my boundary. And in this example, I think one of the places we get into trouble as a parent, is we say, Don't press the buttons. If you press the buttons, no dessert tonight, or whatever, we threaten. But all of that is a way of completely undermining our authority, because I'm giving all of my power to my kid. I'm letting myself get frustrated. Now, I'm taking away dessert, and the honest truth, if we want to be honest about it, is at night, I'm going to give my kids sorbet anyway and then make up something how sorbet isn't dessert, because it has fruit, all because I just didn't set a boundary in the first place. And I think over and over, in parenting, maybe at work too, we're asking our kid to do our job for us, because we just don't want to deal with the emotional fallout, but that's what I call job confusion and makes everyone frustrated.
00:45:16 · Lenny Rachitsky
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00:46:55 · Becky Kennedy
[00:46:55] S1: Well, boundaries are something I will do when they require my kid to do nothing, we want to try. Look, we have to get in the car and whatever I try. I try a game, I try a song. And then again, the intention matters. The reason I'm going to carry my kid to the car is actually, I don't want to let myself then be late and then yell at my kid and be frustrated. I'm doing it because I like my kid, and I'm on the same team as them. So then I might say, "Look. It looks like it's hard for you to get to the car. I don't really want to do this, but I don't know. I'm going to turn around, I'm going to take a deep breath. And if by the time I turn around, you're still here, I'm going to pick you up. I'm going to carry you to the car. And even if you're crying and kicking and screaming, I'm still going to do that, sweetie. I know sometimes it's hard to leave the house. We do have to leave. Here comes my deep breath." Now, what's really important, I don't want to understate, is I think somewhere in us we think, "I'm going to do that, and then I'm going to be rewarded by my kid for my good parenting. I'm going to turn around and you're going to be like, 'I'm ready now, Dad.'" That might happen in some households, but it actually won't reliably happen until you've actually set boundaries over and over, where it's not about taking advantage of you. They're just trying to learn the rules of the game. And so then I would pick up my kid. And by the way, depending on your kid's temperament, two out of the three of my kids would scream and cry. And then we tell ourselves, "Oh, I'm not a good parent. I messed that up." No. Again, a pilot is going to make a decision in certain key moments, not based on consensus. Let's say I'm flying to LA, and it's really turbulent, and the pilot says they have to make an emergency landing, and everyone's complaining, and they're like, "What? It can't be that big of a deal. I don't know if that's a light. I have a big meeting in LA." Can you imagine if the pilot was like, "Oh, Becky and Lenny are really upset about this. You know what, guys? Forget it. Forget it. Forget the emergency landing." What? Even if we were upset, we feel deeply, deeply safe that our leader is doing something they believe is right with the information they have available.