Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
00:22:17 · Becky Kennedy
[00:22:17] S1: Yeah. I've realized I have an allergy to ideas that don't have action. I've realized this actually at work with and just with psychology too. So this whole idea, people are good inside, how can you separate behavior from identity as a framework to then go into a conversation, all of it just feels too theoretical for me. And so I like to think like, what is one tool I can use to action on that idea? And it started, I think through parenting. I'd finished day with my kids. I was going to bed when my kids are [inaudible 00:22:48]. I was like, "Wow, that day was just disaster." And then I would hear myself start talking about my kid in a way where I always loved my kid, but I didn't realize till later, even through the language, I stopped liking my kid. I was just. Even through the language, I stopped liking my kid. I was just listening to your Peter Deng episode, which was a lot about language and how language then impacts thoughts. And I think, a lot as a parent, but it's true as a leader, the story you tell yourself as a kid at night, kind of becomes the parent you are the next morning. Probably same truth. The story you tell yourself by your organization at night, becomes the leader you are the next morning. And I realized I was using what I later called this least generous interpretation. I think we all do that naturally, at least I do. Like, I see my kid not listening and laughing if I'm trying to discipline. And my first thought is, I think my kid's a sociopath. I don't know how I get there. My kid's two years old, but it happens so fast. Okay? And I realized at night, the only way to shift this and get into a good inside mindset, was just to say to myself, what's the most generous interpretation of why I would say to my kids some version of, stop jumping on the couch, it's dangerous, you're near the glass table, and he'd look at me and jump doubly hard on the couch. My least generous interpretation was that he's sociopath. I already covered that one. My most generous interpretation, there's not one right answer. It might be, this is a kid who's really oriented around wanting to feel in control. And when that feels threatened, he doubles down. He is 0% people pleasing, this third child of mine, zero. So the whole, I'm disappointed with you, it's not going to work with a kid like that.
00:24:23 · Becky Kennedy
And when I started using an MGI, a couple things happened. I realized I liked my kid again. And I think we don't talk about that enough as parents, that that's the thing that keeps us up at night. It's not their behavior. It's that we slowly stop liking them based on how we're describing them. And then I realized we were on the same team. And then I came up with a whole different range of interventions because I used a most generous interpretation. I think the same thing is true at work. Someone, I don't know, is belaboring their point in a meeting, when everyone else has gone on. And maybe the least generous interpretation, maybe is what I was reacting to in your initial question is, oh, they're being a baby or everyone just is vain. My most generous interpretation, I don't know, could be a variety of things. Did they not feel heard the first time? Still doesn't make them going on forever, acceptable. But if that's true, I might say to them in private, Hey, something happens in meetings where I wonder if you don't always feel heard. And then you keep talking and then honestly, the rest of the room gets annoyed, which makes us tune you out more, which probably makes you belabor your point more. We're in a bad cycle. Can we work together on changing this? And now all of a sudden, instead of everyone complaining about that person or whatever it is, and nothing changing, which is just horrible for culture and productivity, we have one conversation through an MGI lens and things start moving forward in a more productive way.
00:25:48 · Lenny Rachitsky, Becky Kennedy
[00:25:48] S0: It's interesting how much of this comes back to just kind of assuming they're smart and are trying to do their best job and are good inside and translating to, okay, in spite of that, here's something that is still going wrong, let's try to figure out... There's kind of this idea of curiosity over judgment, trying to figure out what's missing. [00:26:06] S1: And I mean, that's exactly it. Those are two things also that I think are in opposition. You inherently cannot be judgmental when you're curious. And when you're judgmental about something, you're inherently not curious about it. And I think it's assuming... I say assume, good inside or assume MGI, other people say assume positive intent. Whatever language hits your heart, I think is the language that's... Everyone's different. MGI makes sense for me, but if there's someone else that has a different phrase, someone should use that one. And then, I think also assuming, this person would want to work through this with me. And I think Lenny, that's one of the things that we also miss a ton in our kids. The kids who hit, no matter what they say, they really don't like feeling out of control. The kid who's lying to your face, they don't want to lie to your face. They don't want to behave this way either, again, which doesn't make the behavior okay, but it makes us soften a tiny bit and realize we're on the same team. And I think actually we all want the same outcome.
00:26:06 · Becky Kennedy, Lenny Rachitsky
[00:26:06] S1: And I mean, that's exactly it. Those are two things also that I think are in opposition. You inherently cannot be judgmental when you're curious. And when you're judgmental about something, you're inherently not curious about it. And I think it's assuming... I say assume, good inside or assume MGI, other people say assume positive intent. Whatever language hits your heart, I think is the language that's... Everyone's different. MGI makes sense for me, but if there's someone else that has a different phrase, someone should use that one. And then, I think also assuming, this person would want to work through this with me. And I think Lenny, that's one of the things that we also miss a ton in our kids. The kids who hit, no matter what they say, they really don't like feeling out of control. The kid who's lying to your face, they don't want to lie to your face. They don't want to behave this way either, again, which doesn't make the behavior okay, but it makes us soften a tiny bit and realize we're on the same team. And I think actually we all want the same outcome. [00:27:08] S0: Wait, say more about that, because that doesn't feel, as a parent, that my kid doesn't want to... When he's throwing a thing across the way or just resisting going in the car. I want to hear more about what's going on there.
00:27:20 · Becky Kennedy
[00:27:20] S1: Yeah. I mean, first of all, I'll start with the baseline, right? That as a clinical psychologist, I was initially trained in this very reward, punishment, timeout, sticker chart, mode. And to be honest, I loved it, because I have a very healthy left brain and our left brains love logic and we love linearity. And as soon as you're a parent, you're like, there's no linearity or logic really, but our brain wants that to be a system. And it's kind of a system of punish the bad and you have less of the bad and reward the good. And no one really says, Well, how are we raising a human? Those are just behaviors, but our brain loves it. And that's what I started teaching to parents, I did, in my private practice, because it felt clean. But it was at complete odds with everything I knew was helping all the adults in my practice change their lives. And that's actually what gave me insight into starting Good Inside. It's like, there's no way that what helps the 35-year-old rewire their brain and change for the better, is that theoretical opposition with what a two-year-old and five-year-old needs to become resilient and confident. That just doesn't make sense. And I think we have these ideas about kids. Even something I hear a lot, you're making a bad choice, to kids. You're a good person, you're making a bad choice. This is not about forgiving bad behavior, I'm pretty firm about that. But I just don't believe a four-year-old who's throwing is like, hold on, should I throw this at my sister? Should I or should I not? I will choose as not... I mean, think about us. When we act out, I don't think most of us are in a decision making place. We escalate and here's one of the big insights besides people are good inside, that helped me form all of my other approaches, is kids are born with all the feelings and none of the skills to manage feelings. Bad behavior at any age can basically be reduced to feelings that overpower skills. And yes, behavior is a problem, but behavior isn't the core problem. It's a manifestation of the problem. The actual problem is someone doesn't have the skill they need to manage something happening internally. And if they had that skill and could access it, the behavior would change. But that would be kind of the outcome, not the place of actual intervention.
00:29:34 · Becky Kennedy
And so, when a kid hits, they look also and kids will say things like, "I don't care what you say." They're out of control. Maybe they're in a situation where, I don't know, they could be tired, but also they're angry that a sibling has a toy and they don't have skills to manage anger, they're jealous that someone is playing with something and they can't manage the jealousy. And when you look at bad behavior through the lens of feelings that overpower skills, you start to think like a coach. It always has struck me with kids, that we don't punish them into learning how to swim, which I know sounds funny. But if you paid for swim lessons and the person said, You know what? I'm just not going to put up with this. It's this inappropriate behavior. By the way, your kid has to learn to swim if they're going to function in life. So, send them to their room and tell them to come back when they learn how to swim. It's absurd, it's obviously laughable. I think swimming is very important, but an even more important life skill is learning how to manage your emotions. It is. And nobody learns new skills by being sent to their room, nobody learns new skills by adding shame. All that does is increase the gap between feelings and skills. It's just totally counterproductive. The answer is, we have to set boundaries. We have to be the people setting boundaries around out of control behavior. But then we actually have to teach our kids the skills they were missing, which levels up the skills. And that's how not only you change behavior short term, but you actually change behavior massively long term.