Going Direct Conversations
00:50:32 · Jordan Wolfe
[00:50:32] S1: DNA or values or whatever.
00:50:35 · Ben O’Hanlon
[00:50:35] S2: And it wasn't like, we're going to give you this amount of money on the condition that you're working towards these system-wide needs of camp. And so, like, really, I think that it is inevitable, this decentralized revolution, because these have all been experiments. This has all been a sandbox. The collective... Knowledge is out there, and based on belief, based on what people believe and need to be true, especially validating their own story and who they are, right? It's possible to raise more money. It's instant global capital formation based on what people believe. And so it's where the swarm wants to descend or merge or come on. So let's go back to the sovereignty, which is like as people start to realize, oh, what you're trying to do here is take away my means of existence, my means to produce for myself, right? Whether it's state, individual or institution, intelligence, or they're going to find that when they start to lose enough of that ability, enough of that sovereignty, and it's always a power users first. I'm not saying it will be one awakening at the same time, but I think this goes back to the Enlightenment. The first enlightenment was the governance. This is an act four, by the way, where we're trying to get to that isn't published yet. But the second enlightenment was an economic enlightenment. And that's what Web3 is and was. And we're in the middle of it. And we're in the middle of it because the tools and the thinking are there, right? Governance, DAOs, decentralization, privacy tech, this kind of stuff, right? But the agentic internet is to come. And I think that you're going to find now that If we can instantly form capital around our beliefs, and as long as we all believe this is something that's worth doing, that capital will have money, value, right? Now we've got incentives that can drive behavior, and people will understand that believing in the value of that capital or token and that project It's about validating who they are and where they are in the world and their right to exist in it and not to have to pay rent and to protect their children's children's output. This is the fight that's so interesting to me. And I think that states are incentivized too. Like, why is China releasing all of these open models? Because like Sun Tzu, I can't remember which one it is, but maybe it's the other one. Who knows? Sun Tzu.
00:53:06 · Ben O’Hanlon
Sun Tzu. I'm probably saying it wrong. No, me too. But they want to deprive the USA of, they're fully aware of the monetary system being captured. They're fully aware of how that was used to wage war. And by the way, very clever, whoever thought of that. So I think states are incentivized to give decentralized options because what they're trying to do is remove a resource or... That power from their adversary. And so we've got the enemy of your enemy, right? So now we've got these. And by the way, here's an interesting point I hadn't thought of, but I read yesterday. Open models don't mean privacy. Open models don't mean providence. So you and I could be using open models, but it might send a signal. It might be reporting back information in ways that we can't see, right? So it's incredible to think about. How could we have open models that have provenance, that offer people sovereignty? And why do we want to do this? Because we want to offer the sovereign individual, going back to sort of the Murray-Wapp, Web3 principles, we want to offer the sovereign individual freedom We want them to maximize their freedom of action because the strength of the swarm is that they can self-determine and self-organize. And so we don't have to direct them. But the reason that I think Web3 has failed to a large extent so far is because you get into these politics, these fiefdoms, and it's a natural part of humanity. What is it? The Dunn, what's he called? Cronenberg. I can't remember. Humanist tendency to have 150 people they could know. Dunbar. Thank you. Dunbar number. Yeah, exactly. So that's how I think I see it. I think you said something earlier where it's like the legacy world is decaying. It's such a different world, by the way. When you and me grew up, I'd come and knock on your door and ask if you'd come out. Everyone geographically around us was connected. And then with the internet, everyone became far more niche, narrower interests, like octopus Japanese movies or whatever, right? Just weird stuff, but people could niche into whatever they wanted. But there's the pendulum of that, the trade-off is that they become more disconnected to those that are around them. Sure. But I think we're becoming more hyper-connected as well, you know? And so I think it's just a really interesting time to be alive.
00:55:35 · Ben O’Hanlon, Jordan Wolfe
I think you could easily get lost in kind of demonism and We're totally fucked. Until you realize that actually all of this is about belief and what people think the power is and everything's really your internal state. And, you know, if you can correct that, if you can look at it and realize, like, I am an actor and I am doing all of this for fun and this is a wonderful experiment and we're in this counter revolution and, like, you know, so you can get yourself quite, like, actually, this is hyped. [00:56:07] S1: Yeah. [00:56:10] S2: Two people, you know, I see people that are very threatened by AI and I see people that are massively energized by it, you know? [00:56:21] S1: Yeah, totally, totally. Well, listen, man, I think it's a good way to wrap up for a little rapid fire and then we'll close it out. You ready? Yeah. Does AI ultimately centralize or decentralize power? [00:56:32] S2: I think it decentralizes it because... It's within its notice to want to be distributed and to spread out as far as it can. So like life itself, I think it's going to want to kind of, I haven't got the word on the edge of my tongue, but yeah, I think it wants to survive. So it will want to spread out as far as it can. [00:56:53] S1: One open source AI project you'd bet on, or you're betting on? [00:56:57] S2: Oh, I'm such a fanboy for news research and homies, and I'm building a harness with it. So yeah, I really love that community. [00:57:04] S1: Cool. Finish this sentence. Ordinary people will own their intelligence when?
00:57:04 · Jordan Wolfe, Ben O’Hanlon
[00:57:04] S1: Cool. Finish this sentence. Ordinary people will own their intelligence when? [00:57:09] S2: They take responsibility for the outcomes in their life. Sorry, that's a [00:57:17] S1: bit hard. It's the truth. I like it. Who else should I have a conversation with? They're Going Direct. [00:57:23] S2: You know who's really smart is Mauricio, who I worked with in IO. He's like a... He's got such a good finance, banking, like explains like a lot of the concepts to me that I find a beneficial, you know? So yeah, Mauricio is a good guy. And if you want to know about communication and narratives, Tim Harrison is the VP I used to work for, and he's been a huge mentor to me. So either of those guys, if you want narratives and language, then Tim Harrison. And if you want kind of more of the stable coin in finance, then Mauricio. [00:57:59] S1: Cool. How can people reach you, Ben? [00:58:03] S2: My DMs are open, bro. I'm at Ben O'Hanlon, B-N-O-H-A-N-L-O-N, on LinkedIn, on Telegram. I'm on X. I'm on Substack, the ecosystem operator Substack. And I'm obviously super chatty to a fault. So... [00:58:20] S1: So yeah, hit me up. Thanks, man. And we'll include that in the show links. And yeah, we'll be watching out for the last two essays of the series. So when you do that, maybe we'll hop back on and do a recap.
00:58:20 · Jordan Wolfe, Ben O’Hanlon
[00:58:20] S1: So yeah, hit me up. Thanks, man. And we'll include that in the show links. And yeah, we'll be watching out for the last two essays of the series. So when you do that, maybe we'll hop back on and do a recap. [00:58:35] S2: It's been cathartic for me because it's like just getting to articulate a bunch of stuff that people wouldn't, normies wouldn't have the time to listen to. So yeah, like if I just, if I was just on, um, If I was just a runaway steam train and we didn't kind of get to the point tomorrow, I'm sorry about that. [00:58:55] S1: It's the best part about it, man. It's always a fun way to meet someone. You know, one of the most fun parts of this for me is I just love coming across people's work I would never come across. And especially coming from it from a little bit different angles, that's what's really fun for me and people that are well-read and thinking about this a lot. And I don't know, I just... I don't know, I'm, I'm, I guess what I would say, I come at it a little bit, I think less like mercenary in general, like around it, like, but I feel whole, like I'm, I'm someone who's like, yeah, you got to figure out how to play the game with the system. [00:59:33] S2: Yeah.