Going Direct Conversations
00:27:13 · Ben O’Hanlon
Is that because it is a way of people to kind of, I found in myself becoming more aware of my own thought process and how I think because I'm having to abstract it To a model and explain it like a harness we can talk about if we ever have time, but, but my point is like, so I think it can be a really, a really interesting tool, but if it's controlled by, you know, a centralized entity, if it's controlled by people that have interests of their own at the expense of others. Then I feel, and this is all technology, by the way, there's like a tension between tyranny and freedom, freedom of association, freedom of commerce, freedom of expression. And what we're talking about here by expressing our ideas, intent and values in the world, you know, maximizing our freedom of action. You know, these are the things that are so exciting that makes you want to be part of the human race, right? Whereas like the idea of my kids and your kids and everybody that comes after us having to pay rent because Some guys happen to have discovered an algorithm a little bit sooner than some other guys is insane. It's completely insane. And you can only imagine that the people that are the figureheads of these frontier labs are completely captured, you know, otherwise they wouldn't be there, you know? So, yeah, probably exposing myself now is a bit of a... This is why I was like, who built the moon, right? This is why I was...
00:28:49 · Jordan Wolfe
[00:28:49] S1: No, I mean, listen, you're just reinforcing, no, you answered the question in the comment from your, or the excerpt from your essay, but you're getting at the core of this, right? Which is, I think, the line that hits the most with me, which is, and you made the example with the monetary system as well, it's whoever controls the inputs, right? Yes. Like, you just see it, even with AI, obviously you see it in a very, We're going to see it in a very direct way as you see like the insane concentration of wealth in a small number of companies. And with this whole anthropic IPO and everything like that, like we're seeing how much influence they have directly in front of us. And What I would say is, you know, I'm very bullish on the positive aspects of AI, but I'm very clear, even in my own world, it's very interesting, even in my own world, it's like, I think one of the most interesting things AI can do when it comes to like ownership and company formation, it's actually going to create completely new ways to form companies. It's going to bring back different types of co-op models and employee ownership models. And because of the coordinated effects of it and how you can share that infrastructure, I think is really interesting. But I oftentimes, and that's what I'm interested in, that's really where this kind of everything with Going Direct is going to go. But I even myself feel myself getting pulled naturally by like market forces. I'll give you an example. So about a year ago, I almost started a company all around collecting data to help train for physical AI companies, right? Human level data. And that's like have completely exploded that whole space. And as I was digging into it, it was like, no, but that's just like a market opportunity that is going to explode. But it's like just not aligned with who I am. And I think going back to your point, I think one of the challenges, and this is the reality, which is I think one of the parts of the conversation I wanted to have with you, which is the reality of is most humans, like you said, just want to go through their day. They're not going to go through the hard work. They're going to take the fat shot. They're going to send AI slop out the door because they don't want to do the work, right? Right. And so I just think that's part of human nature.
00:31:17 · Jordan Wolfe, Ben O’Hanlon
And so I think the reality of it is we just have to build these alternative systems and these decentralized systems that can be just as good as the other ones. Otherwise, I think for me, it's just wishful thinking. [00:31:30] S2: Yeah, I think there's like dark forest theory in the cozy web where the synthetic content and slop is so prevalent. And I think it's like, 50 to 80% of internet activity is bots, according to Cloudflare. If I can find the report in June, it's like 90%. Maybe it was Solana, but 90% of on-chain activity was bots. [00:31:50] S1: Wow.
00:31:51 · Ben O’Hanlon
[00:31:51] S2: So people are going to retreat into this dark forest where it's like in real-life meetups, person, private discord. So actually, I think the value of relational capital and authenticity is going to skyrocket. I think you're right about... You were saying about like the money, the value, the markets, right? Do you remember the quote from Game of Thrones? The guy, what is his name? Varys, the spider, whatever. I never told me. He says, where does power lie? Where does power lie? And it's a trick. It's a sleight of hand. It lies where people believe it lies. So why is Anthropic worth so much money? Why is, you know, because they want to get to IPO, right? But it is people's belief that makes these entities like powerful or be able to orchestrate or coordinate these resources. And there's like a fundamental truth or trick that the mainstream thinking is constantly trying to play on you when you're in state school or if you're in Watching TV. And I was explaining to my son because they talking about Onion in little bit of a song or something. And the point is, it's which way they put the focus, right? There's two roles in the world. There's acted upon. Where you're reactive. Things are happening to you. They are external from yourself. You can't do anything about it. And then there's you are an actor where you are acting upon the world. So then actually you can change everything around your reality. And that idea of mea culpa, which if you take it to an extreme, becomes a superpower. So like everything is my fault and no others. Nobody else's. Even things that aren't. That's my fault too. Everything's my fault. I create the world around me. Because it allows me to become an actor in that world. And I can change what's happening around us. And I think we're constantly taught Through the monetary system, I don't know if you're in America, but like, God, the socialism in England is endemic. Which, by the way, like healthcare, education, don't misunderstand me. Like I'm English, so we are very like that. Of course, I would want to see education in healthcare for people who couldn't afford it. But the gap between these dependents that the state have created and people that want to go out and be about it and create value for the world, Is just so slim because they just keep taxing everybody to the nth degree, which loops back.
00:34:22 · Ben O’Hanlon, Jordan Wolfe
You'll have to bring me back to our point, but let me look back to something else as well. I thought it was very interesting about the monetary supply. There's another dynamic we haven't talked about. There's a book called Democracy, The God That Failed, and that's Hans-Hermann Hoppe. And essentially, there's the governance systems that we're operating in, right? That are just these behemoths will only ever get bigger because the story he goes back to the beginning is you and I grew up with the paradigm was East versus West, right? There was the Americana, Freedom, Steven Spielberg, Empire of the Sun, you know what I mean? [00:35:02] S1: Cold War.
00:35:05 · Ben O’Hanlon
[00:35:05] S2: Loved America, hoorah, you know, even in England, you know. And then there was like, you know, Russia, communism, and there was this real tension. But that dichotomy, he's like, there's actually a third power. There's a third power that we don't think about anymore, right? And the third power was actually, it doesn't have to be left versus right. It doesn't have to be democracy versus fascism or whatever. These are false dichotomies. He's like, the third power is monarchy, right? The third power is private government. And he's not being a monarchist. We're not advocating for... I know I'm English, so you're worried that I'm going to steal the tea or something. I don't know. The Queen's dead anyway. We've got King Charles now. So he's not being a monarchist. He's not arguing for monarchists. What he's saying is, if Jordan's king, he has a legacy and a long-term interest to pass down what he's inherited from... To those that are coming after him, his children. But the problem with our governance systems is it's full of short-term caretakers. So it's like the system is such that it can be bought because if we control the financial monetary supply, these people are only in power for four years. They're never held accountable anyway, right? So it's much easier to buy, right? So the issue is, and don't get me wrong, I do want to maximize freedom, you know? But the governance system as it is with democracy has been totally captured, the whole thing from top to tail. That was kind of important as a background because I'm going to make an important point here. The series really started off as these kind of axioms, which is that tech is an agent of change, like steam and mechanization that will reorganize society. And you can look at like in the north of England, how the commons were enclosed and people had long held rights of sustainability that were taken away because of another idea, which is no interface, no entry. I have to go and find her name, but I did credit her. And the idea is that before steamer mechanization, there was no way to organize those resources or that labor. But with an interface to something, suddenly new possibilities become possible. And so that's the tech is an agent of change. And then we're talking about history here. And then also tech is a conduit for coordination, right?