Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
01:19:08 · Molly Graham
[01:19:08] S1: Well, the one thing I just wanted to say is... I was thinking yesterday because of the conversation I was having is like, what do I want every manager or leader out there to know? Because I think the world of the IC is honestly a little more clear. You are more productive and you have all this power and agency around building, and the world that feels very hard to me right now is the world of the managers and the leaders because so much is changing so fast. It's a little bit hard to know what to tell people. It's a little bit hard to know what your team should look like, what matters, what doesn't matter, all that. And so I guess I wanted to say a couple of things to the managers and leaders out there, if you'll give me the sec. The first is understand that you're a role model and that what you do and how you behave is essentially showing your team what good looks like. And that means that how you use AI trickles down, but also how you sit in this moment, how you show up. And for me, what I want a little more space for in the world is to be able to acknowledge what this change feels like. I hope there's more managers out there because of this conversation talking about grief and talking about the emotions that come with change and talking about how hard this is for people. I think that acknowledging what this rate of change does to people's brains and psychologies, it just... Honestly, even acknowledging it makes it easier for people. Like I said, I swear to God, that's most of what the Legos article did is just tell people, "Hey, that thing that you're feeling, other people have felt it before you and it hasn't meant that everything is going to hell in a hand basket. It's meant, oh, you're going through a lot of change really, really fast and it's scary and hard." So the more that leaders can be talking about that, I think the more sane everyone's going to feel and less alone. Knowing that someone at XYZ company is feeling the same way as you makes a difference. And I guess the last thing I just say is I think everyone owns this to some extent, but managers and leaders more so, we need to hold on to the definition of accountability and what good means. I think that's part of the role modeling. What is right to give away to AI and what do we still as humans and people and workers need to own?
01:21:45 · Molly Graham, Lenny Rachitsky
We're going to have to role model that and we're going to have to create standards for that. So that goes to your own behavior, but it also goes to how you lead and how you talk about it. Clay put out this beautiful AI writing policy a couple weeks ago, I think it was, and it's so badass because it's literally just talking about being accountable for what you ship out in the world and being accountable for what good is regardless of how you made it. And for today, to me, that feeling of treating AI as a junior intern and realizing that it's fundamentally just a tool to get work done, but what matters is the work is still done mostly by the humans and the human brains, and we got to take care of the humans and we got to help them figure out how to navigate this wild, wild west that we are in. [01:22:39] S0: I'm really glad you added that. It connects to another really interesting insight from the survey, which is that the one thing that you can actually change to increase people's happiness right now at work is their manager. That's the strongest lever for happiness at work. You can actually do something about it. All this other AI stuff you can't do a ton about, that's one. And most people's managers are not good according to the survey also. [01:23:06] S1: None of this is surprising. [01:23:07] S0: So taking care of the managers is kind of just a reminder that you have a lot of leverage there as well.
01:23:07 · Lenny Rachitsky, Molly Graham
[01:23:07] S0: So taking care of the managers is kind of just a reminder that you have a lot of leverage there as well. [01:23:11] S1: Yeah, which by the way, there are trends inside of bigger companies to get rid of management, to get rid of whole management layers, and I think it is a huge mistake. I think it is going to end up biting people in the ass long term because I see no signs right now that management matters less. If anything, to your point, I think it matters more. And again, I get the efficiency and the cost savings and all that, but I think at what costs that you can't predict. So it really resonates that management is almost more important because it makes people feel seen. That's what a great manager does is make people feel seen and supported and help them figure out whatever mess they're in. [01:23:53] S0: It's going to be so interesting to see if there's a backlash towards that. People have had great managers, they're rarely going to be like, "I wish I had no manager." It's like the people with bad managers, which a lot of people are like, "I don't need this person, but they're so useless." [01:24:06] S1: Yeah, they're in my way. They are a wall. No, totally. I mean, I always say you only get a couple good managers in your life and when you find one, hold onto it for dear life because you're only going to get two. [01:24:17] S0: Oh, man. Scary. I've never heard that advice before. Anything else that you wanted to share or touch on? [01:24:27] S1: I mean, it'll be fascinating. We'll reflect on this in six months and see what-
01:24:27 · Molly Graham, Lenny Rachitsky
[01:24:27] S1: I mean, it'll be fascinating. We'll reflect on this in six months and see what- [01:24:31] S0: That's what I was thinking. We're in the middle of it right now. It's like Elizabeth Stone had a really good way of framing it. We're in the storming phase and then there's the norming phase. I have no idea what that actually means, but it sounds right. Storming, norming. [01:24:45] S1: Well, there's storming, norming, and then there's performing. But the other thing that nobody tells you about that framework is that you can go backwards. You often go through cycles. It's a model on team development and you go through storming and then you go through norming and then you go for performing, but you can slip from performing into storming, and I feel like we're going to see a lot of that. [01:25:06] S0: Oh, boy. Yeah. It's very cool to be living through this history, right? It's easy to take for granted just how this is. It's like we're living through history.
01:25:18 · Molly Graham
[01:25:18] S1: It's funny you say that because that's actually something I always talk about when I do these Lego speeches is being inside of a rapidly growing company feels like being inside of a tornado. Do you know what I mean? It's like it is so absorbing and I don't know, shit just flying at you at all times and everything's changing all the time. And it is so easy in that state to lose the forest for the trees. You can get really bogged down or stuck in obsessing about this person or this thing or feeling undervalued. And a lot of what I say to folks in those speeches is you got to zoom out. You got to think about what is the story that I want to tell on the other side of this? It's less about your title or all these things than it is about, I was here and I helped build this. I talk about it as a giant Lego sculpture. So you're like, "Let's pretend it's a tiger". You're going to leave here with this incredible story. You built the feed and then you were part of building the face and then you rebuilt the butt three times and then you realized it wasn't just a tiger, it was a whole zoo. That is what it feels like to be inside of these rapidly changing companies. And I wonder... As you were saying that, what I was thinking about is, gosh, imagine the stories we're going to be telling in five or 10 years. I was there when, here's what I thought that was right. Here's what I though that was wrong. I was the first person to say this. Oh, man. I was so wrong about that. You are living through history that you will be telling stories about to whatever generation of new grads shows up in 10 years. What do you want your part of that story to be? How are you going to tell that story? I think there is something about zooming out and realizing it is hard and there is a lot of change going on, but there is a crazy fun story that we're all going to be telling on the other side of this. We just don't know what it is yet.
01:27:12 · Lenny Rachitsky, Molly Graham
[01:27:12] S0: Hopefully not just talking to our AGI, "Tell me more. Tell me more, Molly." [01:27:17] S1: Totally. That's so fascinating. [01:27:19] S0: Yeah, exactly. "You're so great. You're so smart." Oh, man. Okay. What if we do just some bullet points, like takeaways for folks, just like here's a few key things to keep in mind coming from this giving away your Legos framework, see where your mind goes and then maybe I'll add a few for my notes.