00:41:44 · Nik Storonsky, Henrique Dubugras
[00:41:44] S0: I mean, they were all selling now. Like, unit economics doesn't work. How you make money? It's monetization. Yeah. They were so kind of spreadsheet focused rather than product focused. And for me, it was always, you know, I'll I'll figure out economics later. I just need volume first. [00:42:03] S1: Mhmm. And was that very obvious that you could... You were gonna be able to monetize to you? [00:42:07] S0: For me, was obvious because, again, this mentality that I can effectively compete, right, with other organizations or other people. Because, okay, I was in Kennerwolf, which is London's foundation center. You look around all these, you know, huge buildings, huge banks making a lot of money. Right? And then, okay, they make money. How come I I wouldn't be able to make money? [00:42:28] S1: So you're like, hey, if I compete with these guys, I'll win. [00:42:31] S0: Yeah. Of [00:42:31] S1: course. So therefore, just need some volume so I get to compete with these guys. [00:42:34] S0: Exactly. Very interesting. And no one believed me at this point. Like, Internet Economist doesn't work. [00:42:39] S1: So the first product was this, you know, you launch. And was it like instant product market fit or it took a little bit to kind of get it right? [00:42:44] S0: It took some time. So it took like... I remember we had one sign up a day, one to five sign ups a day, 10 sign ups. Suddenly, one to 100 sign ups a day. So it just... [00:42:58] S1: And retention was always good from the beginning or no?
00:42:58 · Henrique Dubugras, Nik Storonsky
[00:42:58] S1: And retention was always good from the beginning or no? [00:43:00] S0: To be honest, you were like first three, four years I didn't even measure retention. Right? All those I was so focused on product. [00:43:06] S1: On product? [00:43:07] S0: Yeah. Infrastructure. Product. Product infrastructure. Yeah. Interesting. [00:43:11] S1: And then was it... How long was it just like one product? Or like two, I guess, the wallet and the card? [00:43:18] S0: Not long, to be honest here. So we launched with subtraction and then I started looking into other products like credit, trading. [00:43:27] S1: And then at this point, when did fundraising kind of become easy? [00:43:30] S0: I think second round was easier. Second round was even easier. Fourth round, fifth round, it was like really bumped because that was in a bad economic environment. It So was very hard to raise money. So it was hard. Yeah. Sometimes, like generally every single... Every consequent round was easier, but then sometimes we had bumps. [00:43:51] S1: Makes sense. Makes sense. And then at this point, do you think that the vision that you had back then kind of sticked or like what changed in the vision? [00:43:59] S0: Not obviously changed, right? Because like reality is you never have clearly defined vision or clearly defined idea, right? [00:44:06] S1: Totally. [00:44:07] S0: Like, really need to start working on it to get more information, to build something at the rate. It's like finding a goal. Right? You can try here, you try there. Okay. This thing sticks. You go deeper.
00:44:07 · Nik Storonsky, Henrique Dubugras
[00:44:07] S0: Like, really need to start working on it to get more information, to build something at the rate. It's like finding a goal. Right? You can try here, you try there. Okay. This thing sticks. You go deeper. [00:44:23] S1: And what is... What do you think if you had asked, you know, Nik back then, like, what's the vision for Revolut? What what is a 2015 version of it? What it looked like? [00:44:33] S0: I mean, it was just just a wallet in the card. I I wasn't even thinking about vision. To be honest, back then, I was always skeptical about people who kind of have, you know, great vision for ten years forward. They have strategy. Yeah. Like, I I was never like that, to be honest with For me, okay, that's an obvious problem. Yeah. Let's let's get it done. Move on. Right? That was my approach. [00:44:57] S1: And after you started, like, were there companies that you admired more than others? They were like, oh, yeah, I kinda wanna model these companies. And did you keep looking to China as kind of like model companies as well? [00:45:07] S0: Yeah, looked at WeChat. Think back then I looked at... Because I started looking at tech. Obviously, looked at, you know, big tech successes like, you know, Stripe or Airbnb as well. [00:45:21] S1: But like company culture or operating model, were those the company you kind of looked at? Like Stripe and Airbnb? Because you guys seem to have a very different culture than they do. [00:45:29] S0: Yeah. No. I looked at it, but I was never going deep to understand how that parade. I was just too busy, to be honest.
00:45:29 · Nik Storonsky, Henrique Dubugras
[00:45:29] S0: Yeah. No. I looked at it, but I was never going deep to understand how that parade. I was just too busy, to be honest. [00:45:37] S1: Yeah. How did you like... Did you think, you know, intentionally about kind of company culture or was it something that you just did and it kind of just happened early on? [00:45:46] S0: I think company culture is just a product of a founder, right? It's actually replicates you, who you Because I was always extremely competitive, extremely aggressive on what I do, extremely wanted to win. Plus, I was a perfectionist as well. So it... As a result, when I was hiring people, when I was hiring people who are very different to me, I mean, we didn't really, you know, work together well. So I ended up building interview process how to hire these types of people who I know they will deliver. So we started hiring these people. That's how culture is born. Right? Because then these people start hiring the same people. [00:46:22] S1: And do you think that, like, you ended up hiring people that are similar to you? At some point, you probably tried the idea of hiring people that are different than you. Do you think that was a good idea or no? You just kind of came back to like hiring people to learn more stuff.
00:46:22 · Henrique Dubugras, Nik Storonsky
[00:46:22] S1: And do you think that, like, you ended up hiring people that are similar to you? At some point, you probably tried the idea of hiring people that are different than you. Do you think that was a good idea or no? You just kind of came back to like hiring people to learn more stuff. [00:46:35] S0: I mean, all people are different. Right? All people are different nationalities, different background, but values are the same, right? So for me, very important was hardworking. Very important was kind of delivering things very fast. Very important was perfectionist or quality of the product. So for me, as soon as I saw people that are not fitting into these values, obviously, you know, couldn't work together well for long. [00:47:01] S1: So one of the things that I find very interesting on this people topic is that you have a lot of direct reports, Yeah. How many do have now? [00:47:09] S0: Like 40, around 40. [00:47:11] S1: Four zero? Yeah. Four zero. I thought it was like 30 and it like already a lot. [00:47:16] S0: Know, have like 32 direct and then another like 10, 15 indirect or functional we call them. [00:47:21] S1: So, you know, obviously as you know, there's not a lot of CEOs that do that. Why do you think that's kind of what you do? Jensen is a very successful one that does, right? Like apparently he has 60 reports or something like that.
00:47:21 · Henrique Dubugras, Nik Storonsky
[00:47:21] S1: So, you know, obviously as you know, there's not a lot of CEOs that do that. Why do you think that's kind of what you do? Jensen is a very successful one that does, right? Like apparently he has 60 reports or something like that. [00:47:34] S0: Well, the reality is my philosophy is very simple, right? So as soon as you start spending time managing people, they're probably a failure, right? Because then you need to dive deep, you need to tell them what to do. My approach was always people need to be independent. They need to be self guided, right? So they need to kind of self identify what needs to be done. They need to self deliver it without my help. And then we have one on one or business reviews just to sync on direction of what needs to be done across the whole company. And... But as soon as you kind of go deep, as soon as you start telling people that they're doing things wrong, you do it consistently on a weekly basis, they're just wrong people. [00:48:16] S1: Yeah. I remember when we talked, you talked a lot about like building the systems. Right? What does that mean to you exactly? Well, basically,