00:49:50 · David Senra, Luca Ferrari
[00:49:50] S0: You just said you're high... You have very strong and you're highly opinionated on the culture you should have. Do wanna share some of those opinions? [00:49:56] S1: The main quality we look for in people, we call it extreme ownership. We try to work with people who care tremendously about being the best in the world, about what they do, about bringing value to the team. [00:50:08] S0: Hold on. Did you get that from Jocko's book? [00:50:10] S1: Actually, name, yes. The concept is not exactly the same. There are similarities. But I thought the terminology extreme ownership was so immediately evocative of what you look for that I said, okay, we need to use that for [00:50:25] S0: Obviously, you know, only read biographies and history, but I don't read business books. But I I always tell people, was like, that's one of the few business books I'd actually recommend reading. Can read it on a weekend. And, yeah, it's very direct. It's just like Jocko is in... I've met him in real life. He's the exact same person. [00:50:39] S1: Yes. [00:50:40] S0: So extreme ownership? [00:50:41] S1: Yeah. Extreme ownership. Again, we... I think we define it a little bit differently, but the So [00:50:44] S0: how do you define it then?
00:50:44 · David Senra, Luca Ferrari
[00:50:44] S0: how do you define it then? [00:50:45] S1: Extreme ownership is is caring in your belly tremendously about being the best at what you do, about helping the team and the company succeed. It's a matter of priority and intensity priority. And we wanna work with people who feel that way about their work advantage points. We'd rather not work with someone who's really, really smart, very competent, but for whom doing well here would only be priority number three or four. You know, like... We have seen it time and again, we've had people who were probably close to genius level IQ fail here because ultimately, they saw their job as a way to make... You know, to earn a living, to to make ends meet rather than actually transcending apparent limitations and and winning and be amazing at work. [00:51:29] S0: Okay, hold on. You just got done saying, Hey, we're going to centralize hiring. We have a bunch of engineers. You need to have brilliant people in HR. We went through this very unique way that you think about this, right? But how do you screen for that? How do you screen for being successful here and helping this company be successful? Is that their top... One of their top priorities, you know, maybe the top priority in their life? [00:51:49] S1: I mean, it's never gonna be a movement. We understand, obviously, if you have a family, that will be number one. But if you start telling me, after my family, then there's, you know, being a great gamer at night plus one of bar.
00:51:49 · Luca Ferrari, David Senra
[00:51:49] S1: I mean, it's never gonna be a movement. We understand, obviously, if you have a family, that will be number one. But if you start telling me, after my family, then there's, you know, being a great gamer at night plus one of bar. [00:52:01] S0: Gonna apply for a job and say that. So, like, how... What are what are the actual things that you're Yeah. [00:52:05] S1: So I think there's... First of all, you try to... I mean, I don't wanna give too much away, but let's say [00:52:10] S0: If it's
00:52:11 · Luca Ferrari
[00:52:11] S1: a No. But I I would say the... First of all, you wanna see if there's a capacity to to express extreme ownership. There's a bunch of people... Well, suppose every human being in theory has it. But I find there... A lot of people are... They don't seem to be at least not inclined to developing extreme ownership or or for almost anything, so they just struggle to care tremendously about things in life. And there's no moral judgment, but I'm just saying I want to be a part of a team that has a real chance of redefining what's possible and succeeding at a really high level. Of course, that type of profile is not going to be highly appealing. I don't think I'm saying anything shocking here. So you look for signs in someone's past of of that extreme ownership at work. Maybe they, you know, they they were fully focused on their studies. Okay. Did they do incredibly well, at least? You know? Maybe they they did a lot of work next to studying because maybe they didn't have the financial means or they wanted to learn a craft. Maybe they were into open source. Did they... Is is their contribution extremely, you know, this mall or is there something just in terms of it looks like they put in a lot of effort. Maybe they didn't have a breakthrough, but you can tell through the sheer volume of contributions that they really care. Did they launch a startup? Was it because it's cool for months, it didn't work out too bad? Or they ground at it for three years and it was incredibly unsuccessful, but you can tell they wouldn't let up. You know, something that shows they are capable of putting their passion into something.
00:53:44 · David Senra
[00:53:44] S0: So in your S1, I think you referenced Singleton, Henry Singleton and I Tom just read, I did another episode on my other podcast founders on Singleton. And what was remarkable, Singleton made a very early investment in Apple. Right? And then he went to joining the board. And he was asked by his partner, he's like, well, there's a million companies, not a million, but there's a bunch of companies trying to make the personal computer. Like, why'd you choose Apple? Like, you pick the best one of the bunch, and there's a bunch of them. And he said two things. One, he thought that people were gonna be intimidated because they never dealt with... There was no such thing as a personal computer. These things could be intimidated, less likely to be intimidated by a computer named... Computer called Apple. But more important than that, he's like, the founders of Apple had. He goes, there's a lot of these founders that I met of other computer companies that they wanted to start a computer company, but if it didn't work out, they'd be okay. He goes, the founders of Apple had to make it work. They had nothing else. There was no way that Steve Jobs was going give up. And the idea that Singleton, being the genius that he was, identified that in a 19 or 20 year old Steve Jobs incredible.
00:54:49 · Luca Ferrari, David Senra
[00:54:49] S1: I think sometimes, course, one of the greatest entrepreneurs, right, to ever do it. And I think a lot of people focus on the eye for detail. Certainly had that. The perception of what consumers would want. Certainly good at it. I think maybe that wasn't even like his main thing, but I believe what we would call extreme ownership in his case just is we'll probably call it differently, but I think deep down it will be the same thing. Just he cared so badly about seeing Apple succeed the way he thought it should, like, by building those amazing products. And and when you want something so badly, you're not guaranteed to win, obviously, but it just sets you apart. Because there's million or a [00:55:34] S0: thousand different little decisions you're gonna have to make, and you're just going to pay attention and care more about every single little decision. I've I've mentioned this quote so many times on on these conversations we get to have with these founders on the show, but I think Josh Kushner just... It's one of my favorite quotes I've ever heard. Josh's point was just like, if you have to pick the person that is the smartest or the person that has the most experience or the person that wants it more, you always pick the person that wants it more. [00:55:56] S1: Oh, yeah. [00:55:56] S0: I think that's Totally. Kind of where you're getting with extreme ownership.