00:19:15 · Yinon Costica, Sebastian Johnson
We are sharing the the details of... The exact details. Some are more general. [00:19:20] S0: Yeah. I mean, I I think there's something like 470 incidents found or vulnerabilities found. [00:19:27] S1: And counting. [00:19:28] S0: Yeah. I mean, it's crazy. I I think the one that was was was insane almost was that it didn't say what country, but it was a European country, I think, with the national archive. And there was the ability to access and delete something like 9,000,000 files or something. And this is, like, of the National Archive. It's, the job is to keep... You know, to, like, hold down these files. [00:19:50] S1: You hit the nail on the head. So you... It's like, in a way, I'm seeing many of these attacks, and I'm saying, like, it... Like, it's it's almost like someone scripted it. Like, in the national archive, I'm find... Like, we can find delete all vulnerability from remote. And you're like, it's it's it's like someone scripted it. And times and again, we find these examples. I I I don't know what I can share and and not, so I'll be I'll be cautious here. But there are many examples that you are like, someone scripted it. Someone scripted it, otherwise, you know, it's impossible.
00:19:50 · Yinon Costica, Sebastian Johnson
[00:19:50] S1: You hit the nail on the head. So you... It's like, in a way, I'm seeing many of these attacks, and I'm saying, like, it... Like, it's it's almost like someone scripted it. Like, in the national archive, I'm find... Like, we can find delete all vulnerability from remote. And you're like, it's it's it's like someone scripted it. And times and again, we find these examples. I I I don't know what I can share and and not, so I'll be I'll be cautious here. But there are many examples that you are like, someone scripted it. Someone scripted it, otherwise, you know, it's impossible. [00:20:26] S0: Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. Right now, where do you think the power lies? I think you've spoken about this a bit before, but you're right. The the technology is amazing at being able to find these vulnerabilities. Both for me, how sophisticated do you think the attackers are getting? Because, you know, you're finding these things before they are. Where does that power lie between the companies that are trying to protect themselves, the defenders, versus the attackers? Do you think the defenders have a bit of a head start in being able to sort of lock their stuff down? Or are the... Do you see... You know, are you worried about the increased sophistication of these attackers?
00:21:01 · Yinon Costica
[00:21:01] S1: I think that, essentially, when we all start today with access to the same data, let's say, we just try to apply a model against ourselves, so we are on par. Right? So, you know, an attacker could do it in the same way the defender can do it. And attackers, they always have the attacker asymmetry, so they need to find one. We need to, as defenders, to protect against all. But the reality is that the technology today for defenders gives us, maybe for the first time, by the way, gives us a huge advantage in three dimensions. One, our ability to leverage our own context is key. Because if only only me, only... Let's say let's say I'm an organization, and only I, as an organization, have access to the infrastructure, the code, the application, the inventory. And I can use that context in order to have a comprehensive scan across everything that an attacker cannot do. Attacker can have my domain and start from there, maybe some discovery, but they don't know the behind the scenes about my... Hopefully. They don't know the behind the scenes about my environment. And I think that this is a huge advantage because it gives us... As a fact, it gives us a first mover's advantage in so many cases. So that's one. The second thing is that I think AI allows us... And that's a point that is not spoken about enough in in my perspective. But AI is giving us immense capacity to unlock threat intelligence at the speed... Almost speed of light. Right? So it's like immediate threat intelligence and machine speed. Because when we think about creating threat intelligence in the past, it was a very tedious process that we had to gather a lot of signal and scrutinize and make sure that the... We call it IOC, indicators of compromise are indeed unique and so on. And then we had to propagate it to the rest of the world. And this process took days, weeks. But today, we can all... We can... Like, Wiz closes the loop in literally minutes. We see very few signals, and AI can see through these signals and understand that there is a new IOC. It can actually perform all of the tests, automate, scrutinize, see that it's unique, and so on. And then we can automatically propagate now the IOCs. Now threat intelligence is the ability to immune ourselves against attackers. And now we have immense capacity to do it at scale that we didn't have up until now.
00:23:40 · Yinon Costica
So AI unlocked that as well. And the third thing, we have the model advantage, which is if we are using the best models. And let's take like very sim... Let's say I have a model that performs one percent zero per... Like, percentile better than the models that are available to attackers today. Okay? This means that I can unlock millions of websites globally that the attackers still cannot. Right? So these small differences, they matter. So the ability to leverage the best model before the attackers is key. So when we think about the benefits of, let's say, a Cyber Gemini to scan for Good, scan customers, scan all of these environments and have the first... The best model to scan them, this is key. And I will say on top of this, I think that the, again, diversity of thought here matters. One model will find things that another model cannot find, and the ability to actually benefit, going back to the multi cloud, multi model concept, the benefit of scanning using multiple models, multiple perspectives will actually allow us to find more stuff than an attacker with one model. And maybe a reference to this is with Atlas. We released with Atlas. It's our vulnerability research. It ranked first on the cyber gin rankings because it doesn't use a single model. It uses multiple models, each one for the best task it can perform. And then we basically unlock immense ability to find vulnerabilities that, you know, single model solutions couldn't find. So so I think there is a pattern there when you take these three aspects, the context, the threat intel, and the model advantage. I think defenders have a good way to create an advantage in this world.
00:25:32 · Sebastian Johnson, Yinon Costica
[00:25:32] S0: And is there a way that defenders should be thinking about defending themselves from attackers versus this sort of like range of autonomous model attacks that we've seen? You know, the open AI Hugging Face incident, Anthropics had a few incidents. It, you know, that seems like it's it's almost like a very nebulous or opaque thing to defend against because it's it's just the model, right? You're not there's not an attacker behind there with an intention. You're trying to kind of guess whatever a model may or may not want to do. Like, is there a different way to think about those two types of attacks? [00:26:04] S1: So it's it's exactly the thing that we have to assume we we are being attacked using AI. And the best way to predict what they're gonna do is just to try and attack ourselves with AI. Okay? Because we cannot predict. So let the AI do it. Same same way that we are surprised again and again by what the red agent finds. It's it's exactly what we should do across our attack surface. And the and the Hugging Face OpenAI incident is really that example that persistent AI will operate in a very... Like, going back to how security operates, we always think about likelihood and... But when you have abundance of intelligence, maybe you don't need the likelihood factor. You're just looking for everything. Right? So the ability to really try AI against ourselves first to find these low risk things that we didn't think about prioritizing earlier, but AI can take advantage of, I think these are the things that we should be all doing right now.
00:26:04 · Yinon Costica, Sebastian Johnson
[00:26:04] S1: So it's it's exactly the thing that we have to assume we we are being attacked using AI. And the best way to predict what they're gonna do is just to try and attack ourselves with AI. Okay? Because we cannot predict. So let the AI do it. Same same way that we are surprised again and again by what the red agent finds. It's it's exactly what we should do across our attack surface. And the and the Hugging Face OpenAI incident is really that example that persistent AI will operate in a very... Like, going back to how security operates, we always think about likelihood and... But when you have abundance of intelligence, maybe you don't need the likelihood factor. You're just looking for everything. Right? So the ability to really try AI against ourselves first to find these low risk things that we didn't think about prioritizing earlier, but AI can take advantage of, I think these are the things that we should be all doing right now. [00:27:09] S0: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's just such... We're hearing more and more about these incidents cropping up. [00:27:16] S1: Yeah. [00:27:17] S0: Are you... Like, some of these things seem to be happening without anybody knowing. Like, how should organizations be, like, prepared for attacks that they may not even, like, know about?