Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
00:13:41 · Lenny Rachitsky
[00:13:41] S0: I love that. You've also, when we were chatting ahead of this, you actually told me you believe this is the best time in history to be a designer.
00:13:48 · Ian Silber
[00:13:48] S1: Yeah. I mean, I truly believe this. I can't even imagine... Okay, history lesson. When I was getting into design, I was in my teenage years and to learn things, I was learning to design and code, and you could view source on a HTML webpage and see how things were built. And that was how you had to learn. And you could, I don't know, it's like Dreamweaver. And there were these really... tools that actually were really cool. But to compare those to today, if I were just getting into design, the fact that you can learn so quickly, you can have an idea to working version of it in a matter of minutes. You can be so expressive and I think anybody can be a designer. And I think that as more and more software is made, more and more products are made, I do think that the human element of design is going to really start to become more and more important. It's always been the case that I think that companies with great design can of course stand out. I think that's going to be more and more important. I think that products that fully understand their users and that make something delightful, when anybody can make anything, that's going to become one of the most important dimensions of a product and that's how people are going to evaluate it. And so I think designers stand... that is our core job. And then on top of that, I think that designers are just much more empowered. So I was talking to some friends that are thinking about starting a company and talking about the ratio of design to engineer and how at a startup, maybe that's totally different. It may have been like you're going to have one designer and I don't know, 15 engineers or something like that. Maybe at a startup, I've seen that sort of ratio. But they were talking about, "Well, maybe we'll have two designers and one engineer. One really good engineer who can make sure that we're really building something that's rock solid from an engineering standpoint, but then we want two really creative people that are going to be thinking about how we build this product." And so thinking about that, I think that there's just a huge opportunity for designers.
00:16:35 · Ian Silber, Lenny Rachitsky
I think that internally we see that more and more designers, we are completely empowered, to take an idea, to take a early research concept and try to figure out how we can actually package that up into something that people want to use or that solves some sort of unmet need for our customers. And that is a designer's job. And so I think that maybe more and more people start to think of themselves as designers. But either way, I really do think it's the best time to be a designer. [00:17:13] S0: So along those lines, when Marc Andreessen was on the podcast, he had this hilarious way of describing the state of the product org right now. He's like, basically there's this three-way standoff. PMs, engineers, designers, they all think the other roles are going to go away and they're the ones that are going to win in the end. And so there's those Spider-Man meme where they're all pointing at each other. And I'm curious, because I can see a case for each role becoming the dominant role. And I completely agree with you that with all of the tools being shipped, there's a thousand X explosion in products being shipped. There's just endless streams of things to pay attention to. You'd think design would be such an opportunity to differentiate and stand out. I haven't seen that yet in just an acceleration of design hires and explosion, as you said, two designers to one engineer. Do you think that's coming? Why do you think that hasn't happened yet? Do you think it's, as you said, just early and people will realize, "Oh wow, we need a lot more designers."? What do you think's going on?
00:18:12 · Ian Silber
[00:18:12] S1: We might start to see that happen more. Or if anything, we might start to see engineers wanting to become a little bit more design focused. I also think that designers are getting more productive. It's not necessarily the same direct output of engineers 10Xing, but we are seeing that designers are able to do a lot more. But no, I mean, I think that is something we're always thinking about and evolving. The other thing I wanted to talk about too is the difference between PM and edge and design, and are they all blurring together? And my point of view is that they definitely are, and there's always been overlap as far as I've seen it. I've seen designers that are really good product manager type, archetype, but can design. And I've seen designers that are really good polish engineer type. So I've always found that these single siloed role definitions don't really make sense. It's just that at big companies you have to have a ladder to put people on so you can generally organize. But in the reality, when you look at a team, you see that there are people that have various strengths and people that play different roles. And so I've always seen that. I think those lines have always been blurry, but they're becoming blurrier for sure. But the other thing is I do still think that, and maybe this is thinking about it from a slightly larger company perspective, but I think you do still need people that have certain responsibilities. Because if you have one person that's expected to design, to rally a team around something, to align a whole company, to do all the work that a PM does, for example, and also be designing it and also be engineering it, it might be hard to find one person that's good at all of those different skills. And so I still find a lot of value, for example, in having an excellent PM that can help rally multiple teams together, that can help sharpen the perspective or the problem space that a team is focused on, that can help with resourcing, all of those things. And so I do think there will still be value in these and people focused on different parts of building a project or a product.
00:20:40 · Ian Silber, Lenny Rachitsky
That doesn't mean that maybe there's more fluidity that people can move between them, but having somebody who is generally responsible for these different things or an engineer who's really making sure that the output is totally sound and is actually laddering up to something that is going to work for the broader system. [00:21:03] S0: I completely agree. And so just to make sure I understand what you're saying is just talk about all the roles blurring. There's like, maybe we'll all just be builders and we do everything. And you're saying is like, no, that's not going to happen. I'm picturing Venn diagrams of product design engineering converging, but you're saying they're going to continue to stay their own roles. They're going to be PM, design engineer, but each can do more of the other roles.
00:21:03 · Lenny Rachitsky, Ian Silber
[00:21:03] S0: I completely agree. And so just to make sure I understand what you're saying is just talk about all the roles blurring. There's like, maybe we'll all just be builders and we do everything. And you're saying is like, no, that's not going to happen. I'm picturing Venn diagrams of product design engineering converging, but you're saying they're going to continue to stay their own roles. They're going to be PM, design engineer, but each can do more of the other roles. [00:21:26] S1: I think that's right. I do think that for... And again, this is not a blanket statement because I think if you're at a startup, that's very different. If I were starting a company right now, I would hire the best generalist people I could possibly think of, someone who I think could fluidly move between that. But maybe again, maybe that's always kind of been true. But at a bigger company, I do think that I've seen designers that are maybe incredible at designing, but could really use a product manager who can help them with hone both their thinking and then how they work and the operations of it all. So the point is I do just think that there are different... It's almost like taking the people out of it, I think that there are different hats that you need to wear to build great software. And I think that those continue to be important functions, I think.