A Product Market Fit Show | Startup Podcast for Founders
00:05:10 · Dan Novaes, Pablo Srugo
And I think it was like Plenty of Fish, right? Which was a big dating app at the time. [00:05:15] S1: Yeah, huge. [00:05:16] S0: After Apple fees, it was 13 grand. So I had 30% to that. So it was 18K, right? And I was like, what the hell happened, right? And then it just kept doing that over and over again for days, like in weeks. [00:05:28] S1: Who is the funder here? Somebody would come in and say, I want people to like my picture. And they would put money down or? [00:05:34] S0: Yeah. So basically, again, going back to, it's actually, if you actually think about the current business model of Mode. [00:05:40] S1: Yeah, you can see the origin for sure in there.
00:05:40 · Pablo Srugo, Dan Novaes
[00:05:40] S1: Yeah, you can see the origin for sure in there. [00:05:42] S0: You see the connection, the five. So some people don't have money or they just don't want to spend for whatever reason. But they're willing to do it and take an action and willing to do something for this incentive. And so the incentive was, if you don't want to pay, you can just like someone else's photo and or you can follow them, right? And at the time, the Instagram algorithm wasn't that smart. It was good with bots, like fake accounts, but these were real accounts. So real people were liking other real people's photos. So all the bot filters didn't work. And so it basically, we were able to get to anyone to the explore page. And once you get to the explore page, then there's this organic uplift that you get. And you could basically gain tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of likes. And then, you know, that translates to tens of thousands of followers. And so people were just spending hundreds of dollars a day. I didn't even know what RLTV was because this was before like RevenueCat and Mixpanel. I mean, maybe it wasn't, but at least it was before we had the insight to even think about things. [00:06:34] S1: And if you liked or followed, you got coins and then you could use those coins to get people to like your own pictures. [00:06:38] S0: To promote your photos. Exactly. Just an exchange system. This is going on for like two months, right? They'd like, we had made over a million bucks, right? In two months. [00:06:47] S1: Wow. You and you're what? Like 23 and your co-founder's like 18?
00:06:51 · Dan Novaes
[00:06:51] S0: 18. Yeah, he's in his freshman week. Imagine being in freshman week of college. So I was like, hey, I think you should drop out and move to the US and we should do this like full time. And then he was like, if you, because what was our big problem? He didn't have a college degree. So he couldn't get the H-1B visa. At that time, it was easier to get that visa. But that was like kind of like the only way that we could get him into the US was like an O-1A visa, which is basically people with extraordinary ability. The problem is like bootstrap companies can't really apply for that. It's like, I mean, you can once you're like at scale, but not when you're just like you and your friend on an app, even if you're making good money. So he was like, if you could raise a venture around the attorneys, like, because we had looked into it, I'll drop out. And so that's what we did. I was like, okay, leave it with me. And I had this family office analyst reached out to me. It was like, hey, like we're looking, we just raised a fund. We're looking at investing in, you know, Chicago startups. At the time we were based in Chicago. And I was like, yeah, well, we're making like almost a million dollars a month. So, you know, the terms would have to make sense. But we ended up meeting with them. They were cool. And they effectively invested a million and a half dollars at the time at a $10 million, you know, pre-money valuation. We were able to get Mark Cuban as like an advisor at the time because I had gone to Indiana University and I had a couple, a few businesses that I started there. Well, in high school, then in college. And I got connected. And so then we had Cuban, we had this investment, and my co-founder dropped out, right? And we were able to get him a visa. And he moved to the US like a year later. And then we were like, about like four to five months in, right? We'd be making, I can't remember the exact number, but it's probably like two, three million bucks off of this app.
00:08:24 · Pablo Srugo, Dan Novaes
[00:08:24] S1: You had like no cost. [00:08:25] S0: Yeah, pretty much no cost because it was all organic. So one day we were like, I think we were trying to apply to Y Combinator for another idea, to be honest, because it basically, in my mind, I was like, this is not a sustainable business because I had gotten a cease and desist from Facebook that was like, hey, we're going to sue you because you're, you're violating our terms because we did have to use their API. And so it was kind of like the situation where it's like this catch 22, where I was like, okay, how do I do this without their API? You could use the web API, but you couldn't use that, but then they would block that. And it was game of cat and mouse, right? Eventually the app was taken down. It was out there. We made a good amount of money on it, but it was something that wasn't one of these sustainable, like long-term businesses. And so we kind of went into this idea of like running other types of apps and just using that same type of methodology. But that app started everything, right? And we've been working together for 14 years, had like little kind of micro hits along the way. Ultimately until we started Mode almost was like seven years later. It's the first time we generated revenue with Mode. But yeah, it's like basically the startup that never died, you know, and it was a journey, but that was definitely our first. That's like when I knew true product market fit.
00:09:28 · Pablo Srugo, Dan Novaes
[00:09:28] S1: I'm curious, like those people that invested, like the investors, they're part of this company as well, or those are, were those like different entities along the way? [00:09:35] S0: Till this day, my board is, and we have independents, but I have one investor board member, and it's the same investor that backed us 14 years ago. [00:09:44] S1: The mind of a growth hacker or a growth marketer, whatever you want to like, it's just so different, right? It just like goes, and we'll talk about Mode and what you do, like, but it's so at the essence of, it's like Instagram, you know, like people want likes, people want followers, just get them likes, get them followers, and then you just put it on the app store, and it worked. I'm not saying if you did that, it will work every single time. There's probably some serendipity that goes into it, but it's like, how do you just get at the thing that people really want, and not, you know, the stuff around it? Like, we'll help you make your picture nicer. We'll help you craft this caption. That doesn't necessarily get me likes, but if I could pay somebody to put likes, like, I'm guaranteeing that you'll get what you want.
00:10:21 · Dan Novaes
[00:10:21] S0: People make decisions with Ocean, right? We actually recently had like Nikita Bier as like an advisor for, you know, to help us with one of our apps, and he was telling a story, like in this other podcast I was listening to, and he asked him about it, but before he created, I can't remember which one was first, if it was Gas or TBH, but whichever one was first, he was like, there was this app called like Saraha or something. It was all in Arabic. I don't know if you remember this, but like I would just peruse the app stores and see what was trending, and I remember him explaining this at the time, and he has seen this like app called Saraha or something, and it was like all in Arabic, and it was the number one highest downloaded app in the entire app store, right? And that's pretty wild if you think about it, like we're talking about ahead of Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, all this stuff. He basically was like, he understood the viral loop of it, and if this app, which is in Arabic, it's not even in English, is the number one app in the entire store in the United States, there was clearly a product market fit here. So then he was like, hey, I'm going to make this for teenagers, and you know, he crushed it and sold the first one to Facebook and then rebuilt the same app again a few years later and then sold it to Discord, and obviously probably one of the best product growth people in the world. So I remember I had a similar kind of way of thinking is like I would look at what was trending on App Store, and at the time, it was like these like hashtag apps because people would put all these hashtags so that you could get in the feed, and essentially that's how we came up with the idea of Instaliker, which was like people want Instagram likes. They will do whatever it takes to get Instagram likes, and they have no idea how to get it because people like, I don't know back then, but like I remember people asking, yo, I just posted on Instagram, like will you like the photo? Like people were saying things like that, and I was like, the fact that you have to say that, which is embarrassing if someone said that today, it's wild, right? And so clearly there's a market there. And so anyways, that is the first time I've ever launched something, and there's been a few times in my life where I feel, where you could feel the product market fit.