00:01:05 · John Collison, Sam Altman
[00:01:05] S0: Yeah. I just feel like a lot of the discussion ends up being around we need to fix the software. And sure, yeah, should fix the software, but also we maybe need to change the architectures, which is harder but a much more durable fix. [00:01:17] S1: Like, that seems to me like what needs to happen. Yeah. It would seem really hard except we have this amazing new tool tool to do it with. So I kind of think that's what's gonna happen. Yeah. And you're already seeing, like, a new generation of startups talking about building this, like, new kind of Internet or new kind of application architecture for this world where you you assume that the models get smarter and smarter. [00:01:37] S0: What do you think the global software upgrade looks like? For example, is a PHP code base just a bad idea and you should rewrite a nice clean version in Rust? Or do we upgrade PHP? Yeah, as we... Everyone thinks that we need to kind of upgrade all hand spun software. Just what form will that actually take? Is this huge for Infosys and all those guys? Because it's gonna be a lot more software consulting projects. I mean,
00:01:37 · John Collison, Sam Altman
[00:01:37] S0: What do you think the global software upgrade looks like? For example, is a PHP code base just a bad idea and you should rewrite a nice clean version in Rust? Or do we upgrade PHP? Yeah, as we... Everyone thinks that we need to kind of upgrade all hand spun software. Just what form will that actually take? Is this huge for Infosys and all those guys? Because it's gonna be a lot more software consulting projects. I mean, [00:02:04] S1: people are talking more and more about just, like, let's rearchitect what it means to be a router or an operating system or an application. And, you know, I've seen some of these new startups saying that they're just gonna, like, make a whole new stack. And that would have seemed insane two years ago. You would have been like, there's no way. There's too much... You can't write all that. And now maybe soon you can. I would bet that we have a completely new sort of model of how we make systems and networks. [00:02:36] S0: Mhmm. What else reminds you of the early Internet days? [00:02:39] S1: The thing that most reminded me of the early Internet was... [00:02:42] S0: You know, there
00:02:42 · John Collison, Sam Altman
[00:02:42] S0: You know, there [00:02:42] S1: is there is this, like, spirit of just, like, unbelievable creative unleash in people using these tools. You see it in kids particularly. And again, maybe this is just because I remember what it was like when I first got a computer with Internet, and I could do all these things that adults just couldn't even think to ask for. And watching an eight or 10 year old make a complete video game with some crazy ideas they have that, like, no adult would really have [00:03:12] S0: Yes. [00:03:12] S1: And expect that to just be the way that technology is gonna work for the rest of their lives, in fact, better and better. And just, like, this constant I'm gonna make useful stuff for me and show it to my friends. [00:03:22] S0: Yes. And, like, we [00:03:23] S1: had to suffer when I was a kid to make a piece of software Yes. That barely did anything. And now you can have, like, a full three d video game, like, unbelievable anything you could think of in ten minutes. That reminds me of the early Internet, including just, like, these people. Never They're gonna be mind blown by that because that's always what they expect out of the world. Like, any any ideas they can come up with, anything they wanna create, anything that they think might be useful, anything that they just need to make their lives better, like, the computer's supposed to make it. There was a crazy moment at OpenAI where we had a SEV and Codex went down. [00:03:58] S0: I never had forgotten how to code. [00:04:00] S1: I mean, not all the way, [00:04:01] S0: but, like,
00:04:01 · John Collison, Sam Altman
[00:04:01] S0: but, like, [00:04:02] S1: it was like a woah, what if... [00:04:03] S0: Yes. You [00:04:03] S1: couldn't... I remember when I was a student, and I would meet the really old guys, and they would, like, once in a while, you know, pull out their gigantic Xerox Alto disc, or they would pull out their, like, with, like, line by line written assembly, or they would pull out their punch cards. And I felt like it is incredible to me [00:04:25] S0: Yes. [00:04:25] S1: That you all bootstrapped us to this point Yes. Doing it this way. [00:04:28] S0: Yes. No. I agree. And keeping programs in your head. Right? Know, programs running programs running the first time after, you know, hundreds, thousands of lines were written. No. If you lost art, it's like that. Going back to the cyber side of things, in retrospect, you know, was the cyber RL a mistake, or did we just have to go there? It's a little it's a little like the SNL thing of, you know, we urge you to urge us to stop. It's like the models are getting very good at cyber capabilities. It's like, yeah, I mean, they are getting very good, but not just totally, emergently. Look, the reason that
00:05:04 · Sam Altman, John Collison
[00:05:04] S1: SNL thing was so funny is because it was so true. Humor like that doesn't stick unless there's an element of, like... It's, like, clearly pointing out a ridiculous but true thing about society or someone. And And the cyber thing, there is a point which is like, okay, you know, sure, the models are really good at cyber, but, like, who asked for this? Why are you doing this? Like, one of my big disappointments, criticisms of our field or whatever, and I think maybe the cyber... And I was getting good at cyber as an example of this is, I don't think we have done a great job of explaining to people why we think all of the potential downside of this technology is worth it. Like, the kind of caricature of this is people feel like we're like, all right, you know, fine. You say the model's going to cure cancer someday. Maybe it will. And if so, I guess that's good. And you say it's going to, like, make stuff cheaper. And, okay, maybe I already see that's good and I get access to medical advice or legal advice. But but then you paint this picture of the future where it's like a new industrial evolution, and maybe the last one wasn't that good, this one sounds worse, and I will have no job, no ability to, like, have control or choice or freedom of my future, and AI is so dangerous that you're gonna have to, like, have a crazy surveillance state so we don't all die. [00:06:22] S0: I'm with you so far. This
00:06:22 · John Collison, Sam Altman
[00:06:22] S0: I'm with you so far. This [00:06:24] S1: is like a terrible sales pitch. Yeah. And one of the things that I am most proud of about OpenAI is even when it has been hugely unpopular in the AI safety community for us to push for iterative deployment and putting these tools in the hands of people. We have really stuck to that principle, and I think this is the only kind of good path. Think people... It's not enough to tell people, like, you're gonna get the model to do these great things for you. It's it's gotta be, we are going to enable you to have a better life that you define for yourself, be... To do useful things. You're not gonna just sit and, you know, get a basic income and have a bunch of people sitting in a few square miles of San Francisco make all the decisions about the future. [00:07:08] S0: Iterative deployment is this idea that you just have to get the advances out there and you can't kind of stopper them up in some... [00:07:13] S1: I mean, not all. Like, you you still have to make them, like, safe before you put them You out can't, like, cause havoc in the world. But but the but the building up a capability overhang is a thing to fight against. That that, directionally speaking, yes, you wanna get this into the world, you wanna get this into people's hands, and you wanna let people use the technology to figure out all these wonderful things. [00:07:32] S0: The exploits get a lot of headlines. The prevented exploits do not. How quickly are people making progress with Cyberblue? I don't want to