00:45:24 · Henry Innis
[00:45:24] S0: Yeah. So like what often what you get when you like run a CPC cap is you actually just start to lower the quality of your traffic. Right? So that's like a huge problem because people start to optimise towards price and CPM goals or CPC targets. And what they're actually doing is lowering their overall incremental volume. So I think that's an issue. Think... So those bottom of funnel channels, I think it's just challenging and I think it gets cyclically more challenging. So at the moment why I think they're overrated is because the interest rates are lowering the pool of available demand. Like if you think about people just buying less, so it lowers the pool of available demand at that bottom of funnel demand capture. But at the same time, you have a whole heap of brands who are piling into that because they're seeking only performance gains. So they're trying to dial up performance. So what happens when you have an economy contracting, but brands piling in because the economy is contracting? You have like not much value extraction in that. So I think that's a wouldn't say overrated, but I'd say like We're investing. It's a it's a structural issue in the economics of marketing right now. I think a second kind of challenge is like, I think an underrated asset is, you know, broadcast video and online video to a degree is increasingly moving to the living room screen. Right? Like, you you look at the growth of connected television and stuff like that. That's... That kind of stuff is like what has been growing very rapidly. And so what's ended up happening there is that we've priced a lot of that inventory, a kind of, you know, sitting on the mobile phone, which is less impactful to someone's attentions. It cuts through less. It's still priced on the laptop or mobile phone basis. When in reality, it's probably getting as effective as TV. Yeah. Right? Really. So one of the things that I would be doing as a marketer quite practically is like, and I say this all the time, you know, target based on device. Yeah. Target your targeting parameters really need to be around device and online video now because for YouTube, for example, can you
00:47:22 · Adam, Sachin
[00:47:22] S2: do that? Can you target YouTube on YouTube? Yeah, [00:47:26] S1: YouTube watch time on TV just overtook Netflix, which is exactly Like as wild.
00:47:26 · Sachin, Henry Innis
[00:47:26] S1: YouTube watch time on TV just overtook Netflix, which is exactly Like as wild. [00:47:32] S0: Like if I was to say to you like, hey, TV ads are like double the CPM price, but you can buy the exact same asset in your living room for half the price. Like you would do it, but no one thinks of the economics of it. We just all kind of go what the standard CPM of the channel is. And so I think like that's again what I hope Mutinex starts to change. It allows people to start to go, okay, like what's my ideal waiting on this? What should I be willing to pay for this? Because actually, you should be trying to figure out your marketing, not on what everybody else is paying for it, but on what it's worth to you. Because, you know, if you've got a better operating margin, for example, like if I had if I had a business which had like a materially better operating margin than everybody else, yeah, in a consumer business, I would just go buy search and I would just cap everybody out on search because I would know that actually my operating margin allows me to do that because all I need to do is snipe traffic. Right? Because I've got a better operating margin. They can't afford to pay more than me. So that's the kind of thinking that I just think we as marketers, we don't think like capital allocators because we don't think like capital allocators. We actually don't kind of cut through and try to solve the marketing problems from an economics perspective when most of the media market now is an economic market. So, you know, actually winning in it requires economic sinking.
00:48:47 · Adam, Henry Innis, Sachin
[00:48:47] S2: Yeah. And any hot takes on opportunities or risks in influencer marketing, whether that's across Instagram, YouTube, sort of podcasters? [00:48:55] S0: It's an interesting one. I think it's so variable. Like, I do think that there are a portion of influencers who have quite clearly bought their followers. Yeah. And like, it quite clearly shows up in an MRI. Like you you... They'll get a heap of likes, but they're definitely not getting any sales. Like... And so I think that's a problem right for the industry. I think that the platforms have not really like made any effort to clean that up because it's not... [00:49:20] S2: It's so easy to understand just look in the comments and see like are they lots of comments or are they genuine? [00:49:25] S1: Also think people have like a distaste of things that don't feel fit with influencer like there was that whole like green tea detox trend before and like people just shilling kind of crap products. And I think even now, like someone like human gets under controversy because like AG1 doesn't have that good like medical backing or like scientific backing. I think people want to feel like product influencer fit more than before. [00:49:48] S0: Yeah. I totally agree. Like, I think I think people kind of are getting... I've always found it fascinating in culture that the majority, like, I think our culture is really healthy when it aspires to look up to, you know, people building things and creating things [00:50:05] S2: Yep.
00:50:05 · Adam, Henry Innis
[00:50:05] S2: Yep. [00:50:06] S0: And like and like who have been doing things. Right? I think our culture today largely aspires to look at like people who are in acting roles because we associate them so much in the media with like having paid these heroic figures, our brains start to trick us. Right? They start to confuse us that actually these people in big acting roles, they're actually like these genuine superheroes who know about this stuff. Like, that's why we ask for all these takes from actors on issues of the day. Fuck do they know about issues of the day? Like, that's ridiculous. Like... And so, you know, we're idolizing in culture or at least I feel we're starting to turn on this. But but I think for the past ten years or twenty years even, we've been idolizing in culture people who pretend to be something rather than people who actually achieve things. [00:50:48] S2: Yeah. And our celebrity worship is higher than ever before. There's some fascinating reports on the proportion of Americans that worship as a a celebrity is the number one thing. I think it's at like 30% now, but it was like 15%, 10%, a few decades ago. Yeah. It's just rising. And like with the trend of influencers, again, that's people that like are saying a lot, necessarily doing as much.
00:51:10 · Henry Innis, Adam
[00:51:10] S0: Correct. And, and so I think when you have a culture that's optimizing towards like your best people, your like pinnacle of society is like not a physicist or not a software engineer, but it's like someone who says stuff and pretends to be things for a living. You don't have much substance that flows back through to that society. So I think is there like a broader, like it's not even just product influencer product fit. I think there's like a broader cultural realignment we're doing, which is like, what do we look up to as a society? Do we look up to people who are, you know, like pretending to do stuff? What do we actually look up to and admire people who are doing stuff? And I think as we start to reorientate those values, I think we'll start to see kind of better cut for it. Like, I don't think fifteen years ago, and this is why do you think it's changing? Like Elon Musk would have been an influencer. Right? I don't think like business figures would have been influenced in the way they do, but it feels like we're starting to orientate again towards people building things just a little bit more. Yeah. And it's just an anecdotal thing that I I'm noticing, but I'm just like noticing the tone change. And in particular, like talking what you're teaching about before, the tone around influencers is changing. Like people are less trusting of them. [00:52:25] S2: Yeah. I think there's an integrity problem at the moment where there's a lot of people that reach millions of followers, and then they realize that at some point I've