00:28:35 · Gorkem Yurtseven, Burkay Gür, Molly O'Shea
[00:28:35] S1: Super [00:28:36] S2: ICs. ICs are, I think, like, now it's becoming a more common term. Basically, you want your, like, management layer to be super ICs. So people who are just, like, so epic at their job, they can, like, actually do hands on work and then they can also, like, lead teams. I think we have a very similar without, like, calling it this way, we always have the structure in a way that, like, essentially, like, we don't have peer managers. We don't plan on having peer managers. [00:29:06] S0: Yeah.
00:29:06 · Molly O'Shea, Burkay Gür
[00:29:06] S0: Yeah. [00:29:07] S2: And we can gather the team around, like, these really magnetic, like, people within the team that are just, like, really freaking good. And that's just, like, a very, I don't know, natural way of like building leadership within the team. So that's kind of how we've been building it out. Like, we just add really good people and then we see leaders emerge and we gather like the teams around them. But how long can you go this way? I think there's a limit, right? So, you start hitting, I think, like some communication bottlenecks, right? And I think that's part of the scaling challenge, right? Like, you have to kind of think about like, we think a lot about, like, how communicate do with the team broadly? How do we keep everyone, like, aligned? I think those are, like, you know, as you grow, those start becoming the challenges. And so far, like, we just try to have, like, many check ins with the team. I think we're still keeping everything flat and see, like, when things break and then we would throw, like, maybe more management layers. But essentially we're really focused on this super IC strategy.
00:30:17 · Gorkem Yurtseven, Molly O'Shea, Burkay Gür
[00:30:17] S1: And in a way, our growth was timed perfectly with how coding agents and LLMs became a huge part of software engineering. I think forever we can keep this as long as agents and coding models improve at this pace. We just need really talented leaders, super ICs, to manage, maybe be the leader of, I don't know, five to 10 engineers, and you rely on coding agents to do most of the work, and I think we can keep up like this to have like maybe just two levels of hierarchy and that's it. [00:30:55] S0: I mean, AppLovin does multi billion dollars in revenue. They have like 400 employees and 100 people on their engineering team. [00:31:02] S2: Big fan of Adam. Big fan. [00:31:04] S0: I mean, I was there today. It's crazy. I mean, like their market cap peaked at like $250,000,000,000. Now they're at like 130, 150. But I mean, it's like, he is such a proponent of what you're just saying. Like his whole thing is built on individual contributors and people not just because now we have access to coding agents. What about the other side of the brain? What about the human personal things? Also holding the business weight of it and making business decisions, but having you know, the team effort around it. So I think that is like kind of a structural component that's just fundamentally changing. It's like, you can't just be a 10x engineer. You have to be a lot more.
00:31:04 · Molly O'Shea, Burkay Gür
[00:31:04] S0: I mean, I was there today. It's crazy. I mean, like their market cap peaked at like $250,000,000,000. Now they're at like 130, 150. But I mean, it's like, he is such a proponent of what you're just saying. Like his whole thing is built on individual contributors and people not just because now we have access to coding agents. What about the other side of the brain? What about the human personal things? Also holding the business weight of it and making business decisions, but having you know, the team effort around it. So I think that is like kind of a structural component that's just fundamentally changing. It's like, you can't just be a 10x engineer. You have to be a lot more. [00:31:46] S2: I think other CEOs are like also talking about it, right? Like Brian Armstrong from Coinbase, he recently talked about it, like literally like describes a blueprint. Like, this is how we're building the company going forward. I think Elon, like, is a very big proponent of this, right? For better or for worse. Like, he talks about this a lot. Yeah, I think it's really picking up, especially among I think it's harder to do at like non tech companies because there's so much, you know, hierarchy, but I think tech companies particularly are like very, you know, they still need to, I think, go out of their comfort zone, but at least they're better suited to like be able to pull this off. But it is something I think a lot of people are talking about. [00:32:28] S0: So, what are the key traits that you guys look for? You mentioned
00:32:28 · Molly O'Shea, Gorkem Yurtseven
[00:32:28] S0: So, what are the key traits that you guys look for? You mentioned [00:32:33] S1: good Agency is one thing that we I talk about in the think everyone would want people with agency, but you just mentioned software engineers even making business decisions. I think it's unheard of in a big company like Amazon, Coinbase, whatever software engineers do software engineering. But because the market is moving so fast, the customers are, you know, emerging, changing between different models so fast that a lot of the times we want our software engineers to make business decisions or work with customers, therefore have to make business decisions around them. So that's the hardest type of engineer to find, and I think you look for agency. If you think this person can act independently, take responsibility and own the decisions, then the other things we want just comes naturally with it. Hard to test for it. I think the best way to know is if you worked with him before or her, that's the best way to know it. But that's something we care about a lot.
00:33:37 · Burkay Gür, Molly O'Shea
[00:33:37] S2: Yeah, I think we also look for maybe correlates a little bit, but, like, hunger, I think, is something that's, like, very, very important because, like, I think you need to be able to, like, really push in this market, like, to actually win. So, you have to, like, just really want to, you know, win and build a big company. So, we try to test for that, which is very hard to test, but I think, like, you can kind of get a sense when you, like, sit down and talk to a candidate. We do a little bit of, like, reverse selling. I think that helps maybe to identify hunger. Like, Hey, like, it's a lot of work. We don't, like, believe in I don't think we believe in, like, I don't know, toxic work hours or things like that. We go home during weekends, for example. [00:34:26] S0: Really? [00:34:27] S2: Yeah. What? Imagine that. [00:34:28] S0: This is the first I've heard [00:34:29] S2: of So, nothing to, I think, brag about. Like, to brag about [00:34:35] S0: You not going go home during weekends and you're still successful.