A Product Market Fit Show | Startup Podcast for Founders
00:10:27 · Pablo Srugo, Ben Rudolph
[00:10:27] S2: Were you asking them specifically at that point? [00:10:27] S0: You know, at that point it was less of a question and it was more of a, hey, can we have a conversation? I would love to learn more about how you do your work and so in our specific example, in San Pablo, there was a commander at the time. Commander Brian Bubar, who responded to our reach out, and we were essentially like, hey, we are really interested in this case that you solved. We were interested in learning more about how you solve these cases. Could you take us along as a partner? We'd love to learn more and he said yes. He invited us to the police department. He gave us a bunch of background checks and basically handed us this book. And he's like, all right, let's see what you can do. And we got to work, and basically worked out of that department every day for eighteen months. [00:11:51] S2: So you went to them and just kind of said, I guess I'm just not understanding if it was a pure discovery, like, hey, we just want to learn the space, you know, you're an expert, whatever. Or whether you came at it as saying, you know, we want to work on something here. This is like the idea we want to do. Can we do it with you? Which of the two messages are you going out with to all these initial commanders?
00:11:51 · Pablo Srugo, Ben Rudolph
[00:11:51] S2: So you went to them and just kind of said, I guess I'm just not understanding if it was a pure discovery, like, hey, we just want to learn the space, you know, you're an expert, whatever. Or whether you came at it as saying, you know, we want to work on something here. This is like the idea we want to do. Can we do it with you? Which of the two messages are you going out with to all these initial commanders? [00:12:11] S0: We never came to them with, here's a technology that we want to build for you. It was always, we want to help you solve cases and we especially want to work with your detectives to do that. And that was, the ethos and mentality that we had. I think, especially in the early days, a lot of these government agencies have a ton of vendors who are like, hey, here's this technology. You want to use it? And it just doesn't land well. [00:12:38] S2: Why would they let you in? You know, you can't just like, yo, I want to help you solve a case. Like if you have a product or you're like, hey, I just want to have a chat. I get both of those, but I don't have a product and I don't want to have a chat. I just want to help you solve cases. They're like, yeah, come, come in, here you go, solve my case. How does that happen? [00:12:54] S0: Yeah, he definitely took a chance on us. We were very open and transparent with him in that we want to build a company. We were looking for folks to learn from and wanted to be design partners with, and he was open to that. And so, we tried a lot of people before we got a yes here. So it's definitely challenging.
00:12:54 · Ben Rudolph, Pablo Srugo
[00:12:54] S0: Yeah, he definitely took a chance on us. We were very open and transparent with him in that we want to build a company. We were looking for folks to learn from and wanted to be design partners with, and he was open to that. And so, we tried a lot of people before we got a yes here. So it's definitely challenging. [00:13:15] S2: Did you do a lot of the customer discovery before this, before jumping in and starting to try to work with this person to help them solve a case? How much did you already know going into it? In terms of what the world was like? [00:13:26] S0: Yeah, I mean, we did as much as we could, right? We read all these cases that he had worked personally. We learned about the law enforcement structure, police department structure, how they work, how they operate, how do warrants work, these types of things. But you really, in order to make that jump to being an expert, you have to work it and so that was our approach. [00:13:46] S2: And so then what happens? So he lets you in, what do you start doing at that point? [00:13:50] S0: Yeah, he gave us a room in the department and anytime there was a case, they would essentially treat us as crime analysts and they'd be like, hey, we got a new homicide in. Here's what we know about the case. Can you help us with it? And we would be like, sure. And then, so we would sit there all day, poring over these files, trying to figure out what happened, pinpoint a phone number. [00:13:50] S2: Just manually? You're basically free labor for these guys, or you're building tech to do this?
00:13:50 · Pablo Srugo, Ben Rudolph
[00:13:50] S2: Just manually? You're basically free labor for these guys, or you're building tech to do this? [00:13:50] S0: Definitely free labor at the beginning. I mean, I'm a programmer, so I was writing software to do this. So that was definitely helpful, but this is a job, right? This is what they would do. They would sift through this many times, very manually. [00:14:29] S2: So step one really was finding somebody to let you do the job for free. Just so you could learn the intricacies, the subtleties of what the job was. [00:14:35] S0: Yeah. [00:14:36] S2: It reminds me of, you know, I had a company on here a while ago. A company called Ada, and the way that they built the product, which was a chatbot. Again, we're talking 2015, but it was by working as customer service agents. Literally doing the work, responding and getting hired by seven different companies. And then, just learning the job that way and starting to build tools to automate themselves out of that job. And that was ultimately it, that product. Is that similar to what you guys did? [00:15:02] S0: Yeah, exactly. That's exactly the way I would frame it. It was the purest form of method acting.
00:15:02 · Ben Rudolph, Pablo Srugo
[00:15:02] S0: Yeah, exactly. That's exactly the way I would frame it. It was the purest form of method acting. [00:15:09] S2: Tell me a little bit more about, because this is the key, right? If you want to automate something or help transform, let's say, an industry or whatever. You do need somebody to let you in. You need somebody to give you all that exposure and especially talking about law enforcement. It's not trivial, I don't think, for somebody to do this. I mean, you mentioned a lot of people said no. Why did this person say yes? I mean, fundamentally, I'm just thinking about, two people with no. Let's say, law enforcement background. They don't have a product. I'm going to let them in. I'm going to give them background checks. I'm going to give them all sensitive potential information. I guess, worst case, they don't help me. Best case, they do but it's kind of, anyways, what's the driver there? [00:15:45] S0: I think about that question a lot. I'm not sure I have a satisfying answer for you as to exactly why this person said yes. But I do think the way we crafted our message, the way we wanted to be, we had a service orientation approach, and I think that resonated with this person who was very technologically forward. And we told them, we were your scientists and we wanted to learn the space, and build, and deliver great technology for him.
00:15:45 · Ben Rudolph, Pablo Srugo
[00:15:45] S0: I think about that question a lot. I'm not sure I have a satisfying answer for you as to exactly why this person said yes. But I do think the way we crafted our message, the way we wanted to be, we had a service orientation approach, and I think that resonated with this person who was very technologically forward. And we told them, we were your scientists and we wanted to learn the space, and build, and deliver great technology for him. [00:16:11] S2: They probably believed already that with tech they could do a lot more. There's just so many gaps and then just like, I don't have a budget, I don't have the time. And all of a sudden you two walk in, and they're like, yeah, okay, I could see this makes sense. Something like that, which is kind of why I have to go through so many. Because you need one that actually is already almost all the way there. Is that ring true? [00:16:29] S0: A hundred percent and I also think there is like an aspect to, great, I got two free crime analysts. Who know how to write software and work with Excel really well, that's great. [00:16:39] S2: Right, so you're working with these people. They're starting, they're handy cases and you're learning on the job. What happens next?