00:48:49 · Jack Zhang, Henrique Dubugras
[00:48:49] S1: work with failed five times in China and moved to Australia when I started AirWallox. And there's another guy called Kellogg, who is an Aussie that I met at work. So, he's like the smallest co founder. We gave him 5% of the company when we started. [00:49:06] S0: Was it hard to decide how much each kept in a percentage? [00:49:11] S1: I didn't know anything about how to run a business, but the thing I know is that from I grew up is that you always need to share a fair amount of interest and upside with people you work with. I don't know how I understand it. I'm just naturally intuitive about it, and I just share half the company with my co founders. So I basically, when I started the company with Max and Jacob, was like, okay, you guys 25% Then we diluted together to give Kellogg 5%. So he's more like a first employee slash last co founder. And Lucy is actually a very interesting story. So when we started a coffee shop, you know, we... You know, I was working in a bank. The coffee shop was literally downstairs from my bank, so I can come down to drink coffee. And that's kind of why we started in a location because I know the location so well, so I know there's underserved population of specialty coffee, and I know the traffic's... You know? [00:50:07] S0: It's... Because you're working there already.
00:50:07 · Henrique Dubugras, Jack Zhang
[00:50:07] S0: It's... Because you're working there already. [00:50:09] S1: Yeah. Work there. I know the the location. I know it's a very good place. And we were drinking coffee one day on the Friday afternoon, and this girl called Lucy just showed up in a coffee shop and resigned from her investment banking job in Hong Kong and China and wanted to return to Australia. And that was the first time I met her, and she asked me, you know, what do. I said, you know, I work in a bank and blah blah blah. She's like, oh, why don't we have dinner? So she's friends with Max. And we just went to have dinner the first time. And during the dinner, she asked me, you know, are you... What are you doing? Blah blah blah. Are you going to expand the coffee shop? Was like, actually, we're going to resign to start a company called AirWallet to do global money movement. And she's just like, oh, tell me more about it, and then we'll just talk about it. And then she's like, how are going to do it? I was like, oh, we're going to go back to Hong Kong and raising venture capital. And she's like, how much money are you raising? I was like, oh, I'm going to raise 1,000,000 or $2,000,000 and maybe start with a million. And then she's like, why don't I give you $2,000,000 for 40% of the company that you don't need to raise anymore? I mean, this is like a 20 you know, three, 24 year old girl that you met the first time. [00:51:20] S0: And you had money from family?
00:51:20 · Henrique Dubugras, Jack Zhang
[00:51:20] S0: And you had money from family? [00:51:22] S1: I didn't know at that time, right? So basically, this is on Friday, and then she just keep talking about it and getting a bit serious. She's like, hey, why don't we just meet up in law school back in Melbourne Uni tomorrow morning at eight and we talk about this seriously? So she basically had a few million dollars from her parents and her husband's parents, and they want to buy a property in Melbourne. So this is the money that they want to use to buying properties. And then we basically talked from eight to eleven ish, and even her husband really against her investing us. And we basically got a verbal term sheet agreed. She will invest $1,000,000 at $5,000,000 post for twenty percent of the company. And on Monday before... This is all before I even started a company. I haven't even resigned. On Monday, '11 I got a million US dollar wire to my personal bank account. [00:52:15] S0: That's [00:52:15] S1: crazy. There was nothing signed. No company incorporated. [00:52:18] S0: That's crazy. [00:52:19] S1: This is like a girl I met the first time. [00:52:22] S0: Insane. And that wasn't your first million, though. Right? Because none of that was your money. It was company money, but, like, you had made more than 1,000,000 at this point.
00:52:22 · Henrique Dubugras, Jack Zhang
[00:52:22] S0: Insane. And that wasn't your first million, though. Right? Because none of that was your money. It was company money, but, like, you had made more than 1,000,000 at this point. [00:52:28] S1: Yeah. Yeah. I made a lot more than 1,000,000, but I... Number one, you know, I don't think I can take the money out because of my my relationship with my my ex. And and, also, it's a lot risky, but the the probability of the money gonna be disappear. So I wasn't prepared to putting up, like, a million US dollar into the business. [00:52:45] S0: Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. So she invested, and and then how... But, you know, did she come work for the company? Like, how did that work? [00:52:51] S1: Yeah. Because I feel kinda bad that, you know, I took her money, then I was like, what about if this goes to zero? And, like, maybe I can invite her to work for the company so that even went to the zero, and... Which is 99% of the chance. And she at least knows that we worked, like, 200% so that we're not, like, wasting her money. [00:53:12] S0: And did you actually believe it kinda, you know, more more likely than not was gonna go to zero, or in your heart you thought it was gonna work? [00:53:19] S1: 99% of the chance it's gonna go to zero. [00:53:21] S0: Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. [00:53:23] S1: Because I have no idea how to do this thing. You know? [00:53:26] S0: Yeah. Okay. So, you you know, you raised the money. And what was the first product or first insight?
00:53:26 · Henrique Dubugras, Jack Zhang
[00:53:26] S0: Yeah. Okay. So, you you know, you raised the money. And what was the first product or first insight? [00:53:31] S1: The first product has completely failed. Essentially, that to do global money movement, we have to solve f x first. And then to solve f x, we have to get the best price. And the idea was to do peer to peer. So for example, if I have a bunch of people in Australia paying people in Brazil and I have a similar amount of people in Brazil paying Australia, I can net it off. I can match the I can market making. But in reality, when we do the algorithm in simulating, I think when you have more countries, right, you have multiple dimensions, that's increasing the number of matching in an order of more attitude. But when we actually, while the code did that simulation, this is after we raised money from Lucy, and we started raising $2,000,000 more from venture capital in Hong Kong. And we realized algorithms never going to work. To get to, like, the trading volume that we needed to actually do matching within a day so that the payment's not so late, we need multiple billions of dollars of trading volume in this very concentrated corridor, which we're just never going to get to work. But we're still leveraging the idea to raise an extra $2,000,000 at $10,000,000 post while knowing the idea didn't work. [00:54:46] S0: And why did you move to Hong Kong?
00:54:46 · Henrique Dubugras, Jack Zhang
[00:54:46] S0: And why did you move to Hong Kong? [00:54:48] S1: This is after I raised the $3,000,000 so $1,000,000 from Lucy and $2,000,000 from the Citi investor called Gobi Partners. And they are Hong Kong based VC. And they basically told us, you know, that the opportunity in China is quite big. There's a lot of companies exporting from China and doing e commerce, maybe there's opportunities there. You guys should check it out. And that's kind of how we were sort of moving to Hong Kong because the company also failed the first prototype, which is a peer to peer... [00:55:21] S0: But did you actually build it or just We models [00:55:23] S1: built the core algorithm and we do the simulation, and we just realized the simulation... From the simulation result, we realized the algorithm was never going work. So we have to do something new. [00:55:34] S0: But did you spend any of the money at that point or very little? [00:55:37] S1: We spent probably a quarter of the money. [00:55:40] S0: Oh, wow. [00:55:41] S1: Yeah. And And [00:55:42] S0: then at this point, you're saying you're raising the money. You kinda knew it was not working, but, like, you know, let's just keep going.