Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
01:11:05 · Tony Fadell, Lenny Rachitsky
So I think we, again, understand what we think we want, but where the technology is and the social adoption and the social trust that needs to be created around that is going to take a lot of time and it's going to take a lot of iterations to get there, and it's especially if you're going to have to pay for it. [01:11:26] S1: It's really interesting to hear you say that long-term even we're going to need a screen because I think a lot of people are trying to go to just like an AirPod or some kind of magical AI. [01:11:35] S0: Sure. How are you going to look at a map if you want to look at a map? You're going to listen, like put on the voice stuff in your car and never look at the map on your car and say, "Oh, turn left in 200 feet. Turn left in 100 feet." You're like, "Shut up. I can't hear you anymore. I just want to glance over." So I don't buy it, like unless you have it jacked in your brain or into your eye or some other way, it's getting into your cortex. [01:11:58] S1: That is so interesting. And you're not a fan of, like, the Humane approach; I think it was like a little projection on your hand as a screen... ... have the humane approach, I think, was a little projection on your hand as a screen replacement. [01:12:05] S0: It was. [01:12:05] S1: Was that part of it? [01:12:07] S0: Yeah. Why? What? It's different, not better. [01:12:14] S1: So funny. I guess the advantage obviously is it's like a small little device you could just put somewhere versus a screen, but yeah.
01:12:14 · Lenny Rachitsky, Tony Fadell
[01:12:14] S1: So funny. I guess the advantage obviously is it's like a small little device you could just put somewhere versus a screen, but yeah. [01:12:21] S0: Yeah. And you're like, oh, it's like the hologram projections of Star Wars or something. You're like, yeah, that's cool, but you still need a screen or something to project on. So it is a screen at the end of the day. You got to still project it onto something. [01:12:38] S1: Yeah. It's wild because everyone keeps saying, how is it possible that the end ideal product is a piece of glass that we look at? And what you're sharing here is just that's, actually, maybe, the ideal product long-term. [01:12:49] S0: Yeah. And like I said, you fold it up, you put it in your thing, and it rolls out or whatever else. But I still think there's going to be that thing. [01:12:55] S1: The screen it's so interesting. [01:12:55] S0: If you look at Her, if you remember the movie Her, they had glass. There was glass there for certain things. [01:13:03] S1: [inaudible 01:13:03]. Wow. And I completely don't know [inaudible 01:13:06]- [01:13:05] S0: Yeah. You have to go back and watch the movie; it's there. [01:13:10] S1: Oh my God. That movie. That nailed it. Oh man. [01:13:13] S0: Go Spike. [01:13:13] S1: It's Spike Jonze, right? [01:13:14] S0: Yep. [01:13:18] S1: That I didn't know. I wanted to ask also, just, it's interesting that basically everyone is getting to hardware now. You've been at this for so long, building hardware in AI, and now it's just the hottest thing. Everyone's building hardware. [01:13:27] S0: So funny.
01:13:27 · Tony Fadell, Lenny Rachitsky
[01:13:27] S0: So funny. [01:13:28] S1: Thoughts? I don't know. How does that feel?
01:13:30 · Tony Fadell
[01:13:30] S0: Look, I was building hardware when it wasn't in Vogue in 1995 and '96. Everyone's like, "Tony," and this was in the Valley, "Tony, you're crazy. It's all about the internet. We don't need any hardware." And then iPod comes, and I was pitching new businesses in '99 and 2000. They're like, "Well, that's the stupidest idea ever." Then the iPod comes out, "Tony, you want to leave Apple and start that business you wanted to do with hardware?" And then it was like, okay. Then it was all software mobile stuff again, like, " Okay, we don't need anything," but we can't get to the next level of software if we don't make the next level of hardware. And the revolution has to happen completely. You got to have the mobile network and the mobile network software for the mobile network to work. You had to have the MP3 player and the MP3 format bits to make that work. We're seeing with AI, we got to have AI plus all the data centers and edge compute to make that work. And then over time, the hardware becomes less, it becomes more mundane. Okay, it doesn't change as much, but all the software starts to then... So I've always just been continually going through the things that I love to do and doing the things at the full stack level, because that's where I know is innovation, that's what we had to do at Nest. We had to innovate at the software level, the hardware level, the network level to get the first thermostat out and then the Nest Protect and all that stuff. If we look now, going on, people are like, if you're a SaaS company or if you're a software only company, your software companies' worthless because anyone can vibe code it into the thing. And then they're like, "We're only funding companies that have atoms in their business plan with software." I'm like, "Duh. Where have you guys been?" So it's just funny to watch these cycles go and happen, and it's like, "Okay, all right, you guys can go chase your tails. I'm going to just keep here doing these full system kind of products and businesses." Yes, they're a lot harder, and yes, they cost more money, and yes, they're going to take longer to scale and adopt and blah, blah, blah, but they have staying power for years.
01:15:42 · Tony Fadell, Lenny Rachitsky
And they bring new features that you could have never had if you just did software only because you need, especially, let's say, in robotics, you need new sensors and new this and new that and what have you. Look at Waymo, it's an electric car with tons of sensors and everything. It's a hardware platform. Maybe it doesn't look as streamlined as maybe a smartphone, but it's an incredible hardware platform with an incredible software platform. And that is something that we're going to be able to innovate on, and it'll become a platform for something else, I'm sure, delivery or this or whatever else. [01:16:19] S1: When Evan Spiegel's on the podcast, Snapchat founder, he said exactly this. This is why they've spent so much money on these specs, and he's just like, "This is the only way to survive in software is you need to have a hardware component now." [01:16:30] S0: Yeah, just very interesting. Everything old is new again, and I've been in this game 35, 40 years. You just see it, and you're like, okay, I was there at '99 when the bottom fell out, and AI is different, but there's a lot of similarities, and we're going to have the gen one companies, the gen two companies. And when people really understand product instead of selling technology platforms that people have to figure out for themselves. So it's fun to watch. It's a game.
01:16:30 · Tony Fadell, Lenny Rachitsky
[01:16:30] S0: Yeah, just very interesting. Everything old is new again, and I've been in this game 35, 40 years. You just see it, and you're like, okay, I was there at '99 when the bottom fell out, and AI is different, but there's a lot of similarities, and we're going to have the gen one companies, the gen two companies. And when people really understand product instead of selling technology platforms that people have to figure out for themselves. So it's fun to watch. It's a game. [01:17:02] S1: Okay. Maybe one more question before we get to our very exciting lightning round. What are you most excited about these days in terms of, I don't know, gadgets or hardware or technology that's emerging? Is there anything you're like, oh, shit, pay attention?