Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
00:27:59 · Tony Fadell
[00:27:59] S0: Well, the iPod wasn't big enough. It took three generations of the iPod before it became successful. Well, anyone who knows if they remember iPod before iPhone, because iPhone swallowed everything. It's the black hole of everything. But iPod, the first generation was only successful with the Mac Geeks. And the Mac Geeks were less than 1% of the market. And then the second generation was also that way. We'd sell everything we could for the most part in the first quarter and then it would die, because it was just the Mac aficionados, the loyalists who'd come and buy everything. And it wasn't until the third generation where we made it work on Windows. And we had the iTunes music store. Did it actually start to take off? So sometimes you have to say, "We're on the right thing, but we need to make some changes to get this market going. And that was a real opinion-based decision. The team that I was running, we were really clear that we had to have Windows connectivity out of the gate, or not out of the gate, but just after the first iPod shipped. And Steve said, "Over my dead body, no way. This is going to help us sell more Macs." And then we're like, "Okay, we're making the second one. Oh, we're going to keep it with Mac only. We just got to fix a few of these things and then all of a sudden it'll take off." And it was like, it didn't take off. So then it was a long story about how we finally got Windows connectivity, but there was always this skunk works thing project behind the scenes doing that. I did the same thing with Stylus. Steve never wanted a stylist on the iPhone or the iPad. He never wanted it. He's like, "The finger is good enough. And we can't do it with the finger." And I'm like, "But we're going to have the B2B context and we're going to have form filling, and people are going to write." And he's like, "I don't care." That means we're going to get to Windows pen because he thought it was going to be like Windows pen, which was you had to use the pen for everything as opposed to using your finger. So it was like, "Instead of pen dominant, I want it finger dominant." But that's what he was saying. But then when we added the stylus, which was another skunk works project, all of a sudden it came out and it was like, "Well, we had to have stylus." And now it's a big feature of the product.
00:30:21 · Tony Fadell
Not everyone uses it, but it is a big feature for certain professionals who really want that, and artists and hobbyists and stuff. So sometimes you have to have those skunk works things that even if the opinion- based leader doesn't like it, you're like, "That seems like the right thing." Maybe not right now, but you can see it on the horizon so you just keep working on those things. But we had to, like I said, the iPhone wasn't a hit right away. It was like a, "Oh yeah, it worked on AT&T and it was two and a half G and it was this and that." It only worked in the US. So we had to get multiple versions till we got out. And that's in my book, it's called, I think it's three generations. Everything needs three generations. Yes, Bill, there it is. Three generations. I've learned, you make the product, you fix the product, then you fix the business. I've never seen anyone get it all right the first time. You would like to, but you get close. But make the product, fix the product after you get customer feedback and then make the business, which means make the margins. Like on the first iPods, we weren't making any money. First iPhones, we weren't making any money. The second iPhone and second iPod, okay, we started getting a little bit better numbers, but we got more or less the features dialed. Third one was like, okay, Windows, we got the margins, we're getting up the volume, we got all the right [inaudible 00:31:48]. And like go. Reliability, whatever else it had to be. So you need to stick with your idea even if it's not necessarily going the first time, unless your brain-damaged about whatever it was, you have to restart. But sometimes you have to hang in there. And same thing with Nest. We had to hang in there with two generations of the smoke detector and a few generations of thermostat before we made the business work, not just make the product work.
00:32:16 · Lenny Rachitsky, Tony Fadell
[00:32:16] S1: There's so many directions I can go here. One that's interesting is how often Steve Jobs was actually wrong and how many times you had to [inaudible 00:32:24]. [00:32:24] S0: We all were wrong at certain times, but it's when you hit those, when you hit it big, when you get the right ones, they overshadow all the other stuff, but that's how you have to try and iterate. Jeff Bezos says the same thing. I believe in the same thing. You got to fail a few times until you find your way, but you only fail if you stop. If you keep iterating and keep going, well then that's not failure. That's called learning. [00:32:54] S1: The other interesting part of the story you just shared here, it was one of my favorite stories in your book actually, the fact you implied this, but basically the first iPod was you had to have a Mac to use it. And the idea is you want to sell Macs. This is a way to get people to buy Macs. The way you tell it is basically this ended up saving Apple eventually, not selling Macs, but people buying iPods. And that became the big part of the business.
00:32:54 · Lenny Rachitsky, Tony Fadell
[00:32:54] S1: The other interesting part of the story you just shared here, it was one of my favorite stories in your book actually, the fact you implied this, but basically the first iPod was you had to have a Mac to use it. And the idea is you want to sell Macs. This is a way to get people to buy Macs. The way you tell it is basically this ended up saving Apple eventually, not selling Macs, but people buying iPods. And that became the big part of the business. [00:33:18] S0: Yeah. The mantra was, "Steve, if we don't have Windows connectivity, the iPod doesn't cost $349. It costs $3,000 because you got to buy a Mac, and you got to move all your digital life over to it and everything else. People are not about to take a risk on this company that's almost bankrupt for $3,000. So how are we going to do that?" Okay, let's make sure it is only $349 and that they can try it. And once they try the brand, they go, "Ooh, that's pretty interesting. Maybe I should try other products from this company and give them a shot." Because that was just such a sublime experience and that's how it all changed and that's how iPhone was able to be created, because without the iPod, I'm pretty sure there would've been no iPhone. There would've probably been no Apple because it was close to bankruptcy. [00:34:07] S1: Wow. That's crazy how close it was to that if some of these decisions went the wrong way. [00:34:12] S0: Yeah. Very close. Remember, there was no retail back then. Apple retailers, none of that stuff. Most people don't know how on the ropes Apple was back in 2001.
00:34:12 · Tony Fadell, Lenny Rachitsky
[00:34:12] S0: Yeah. Very close. Remember, there was no retail back then. Apple retailers, none of that stuff. Most people don't know how on the ropes Apple was back in 2001. [00:34:22] S1: So many stories, but I want to come back to the customer journey thread that you touched on, which I think is really, really important for people listening to this podcast to hear, something that you kind of reinforce again and again in the book. And you have this awesome image that we're going to show of the entire customer journey. And your point that you make is so many product builders focus on building the product and think, build the best product we're going to win. And you have this very important advice of there's so much more to it. Especially the marketing piece, talk about what you think builders don't really get, even though they hear this advice in many ways.
00:34:54 · Tony Fadell
[00:34:54] S0: When we build products, we define products when we build them. We have a good sense of the context when we are defining those things. We're living in that world. And so we're like, "Oh, we're like this and these are our issues and this is who we are." And maybe you put on personas. We would strip out and figure out who our target customers were with their personas. Is it a single mom with kids or is it a dual income, no kid family, or is it senior citizens or whatever? And we would come up with these personas and we would live inside them as we're thinking about the product. But you have to also remember that these people, they live in the context, but they're not aware of your product in their context. And so you have to bring it home to them and meet them where they are. And so your marketing, your website, your Instagram ads, your whatever, your owned and earned and owned media that you do, you really need to put your product in their context and make the visuals and make the words and everything sing to them. And if not, they're not going to get it. And so too many times we just say," Well, if we just make the perfect product." No, you have to put all for a consumer thing specifically, and it's also really good for a B2B product as well, is make sure you understand your customer. And when you say the right word, they go, "Oh, they get me. Oh, I want to listen to these more." And this is before they ever got the product. You need to get them to convert in some way and they need to hear that you've already thought about their issues, or you know and you're living in their shoes. And they're like, "Yes, yes, yes. More of that." Is this an emotional point? Is this a rational point? And you're weaving this tapestry to get them to come to some kind of trial or purchase or conversion or something of the product. And the best way to do that is word of mouth by other early adopters, but you got to do the same thing for the early... and I mean not the earliest early adopters, but the early adopters who other people trust to talk to. Because a lot of other people who are late adopters, they know, "Oh, that's wacky George, he tries everything and then [inaudible 00:37:20]. No, no, no." But if so-and-so's tried it, oh, I should take notice to that.