00:30:49 · Shensi Ding, Molly O'Shea, Gil Feig
[00:30:49] S2: my board. God. [00:30:51] S1: My god. That's hilarious. [00:30:52] S0: Yeah. [00:30:53] S1: Wow. Do you guys watch these trends, keep track of them for marketing purposes and for sales purposes? What have you seen over time? [00:31:01] S2: So I think we're just naturally really interested in it. So we just follow a lot, obviously, on Twitter, but then also No, internally. Oh, internally. From all we get [00:31:09] S1: a lot of customer use, like, are you watching the trends of what people are shifting to? Because obviously, a lot of these code platforms are new, and some of the old SaaS platforms are they're boring and people don't want them anymore. We get a lot [00:31:22] S2: of heads up on like roadmap plans, like where people are planning on going, what they're where they think things are going. And also honestly on the partner side, because we have so many different partners and Gil and I are also meeting with them a lot. We hear a lot of industry gossip about like future plans, like what they're doing with their API, partnerships that they're going to establish. So we hear a lot naturally just because we are in the middle of all this activity. So yeah, I don't know. Yeah, gossip just like naturally comes to us. Yeah. [00:31:48] S0: A lot of the giants that seem stuck right now are planning big moves. We'll see how fast they move on them, but there's some exciting stuff coming. [00:31:54] S1: Yeah. Speaking of one of those and your favorite person, Salesforce and their headless announcement.
00:31:54 · Molly O'Shea, Shensi Ding, Gil Feig
[00:31:54] S1: Yeah. Speaking of one of those and your favorite person, Salesforce and their headless announcement. [00:31:59] S2: Yeah. Yeah. I fucking love Benioff. You do? I do. I know I'm long I'm long Benioff. [00:32:04] S0: She's read all his books. She [00:32:05] S2: she loves Benioff. His podcast. Yeah. I listen to all that. [00:32:08] S1: Yeah. And you had a story that you guys were about meet him and he didn't show up. [00:32:12] S2: Yeah. Yeah. So one of our team members, her husband works at Salesforce and he was like, oh, like, I can get you guys invited to Benny Odd's holiday party. Like, would you guys wanna go? And we actually had, like, board meeting. We were like, oh, like, you know what? Like, we should go. Like, we we like we've been trying to, work at Salesforce for a while. Let's, let's try to go. And so Gil flew out, for one day for one day on economy, so that [00:32:32] S0: he could [00:32:32] S2: do an exact holiday party in New York. And so we go to the holiday party. We're like ready, we're prepped. I've read all, I've read his books. I've listened listened to every podcast he's been on. [00:32:40] S0: I deeply researched all their products, things they were buying, new tech they have.
00:32:40 · Gil Feig, Shensi Ding, Molly O'Shea
[00:32:40] S0: I deeply researched all their products, things they were buying, new tech they have. [00:32:43] S2: Yes. And then we're sitting there and then he just never shows up. No. And then like four hours later, DJ's cleaning up. Gil's still like, let's just sit here and soap. You know, sorry. But I think what was really helpful from that time actually was that we did I did do a lot of research on Salesforce and like as did Gil, and, we talked a lot about it. And one thing that's really remarkable is it's very hard to have a dominant product and company for thirty years through multiple tech shifts. And so I just would not count Benioff out. I think, like, he's able to adjust really well to whatever market dynamics are coming. And I think it's partially because of his philosophy of, like, the beginner's mind that he always talks about in his book. Like if I started the company today, what would it look like? And so I think that if Salesforce can do a headless, can make like, could do headless like anyone else can. It's really, really impressive what they've been able to do because it probably is very hard for them to accomplish that. [00:33:35] S0: Yeah. And Salesforce, I, I especially think they'll succeed with headless just because throughout, throughout the past, like they've always had- For [00:33:40] S1: people who don't know what headless is also explain that.
00:33:40 · Molly O'Shea, Gil Feig, Shensi Ding
[00:33:40] S1: people who don't know what headless is also explain that. [00:33:43] S0: Yeah. Essentially like you never need to go to Salesforce. You can have your agent, it can, it can, you know, go sign up through, through the API or through a CLI tool, like a command line tool. It can, you know, create accounts. It just kind of does everything without actually going into the platform, headless being almost UI less. And in the past, they've, they've already shown that they are open to this for, for twenty years because they have an open API and a lot of people have built on top of them. They, they built a great ecosystem around them where it's [00:34:10] S2: their moat. [00:34:11] S0: It's their moat. You're using other tools. They actually, you know, maybe they do, but like on the surface, they appear to not care if you really go into the the app. They just care that all your whole stack is built on top of the data that's stored inside of there. So this is actually nothing new. Right? It's just saying, okay, now agents are capable of using APIs to a whole additional level. We're gonna facilitate so that they can do everything via API or MCP or whatever you want to refer to it as. So I think they've shown that that was a moat. That was something that was very successful for them. And this is only going to continue that. [00:34:40] S2: But yeah, we've really taken a lot of inspiration from what he, like what he said about beginners mind for our
00:34:40 · Shensi Ding, Molly O'Shea
[00:34:40] S2: But yeah, we've really taken a lot of inspiration from what he, like what he said about beginners mind for our [00:34:58] S1: good answer. Yeah. Wow. How'd you come up with that? So I guess, like, because you guys are so close to the metal, and you understand everything that's been evolving with APIs. Can you explain how that market has evolved? And do you think more companies are going to take the headless approach? [00:35:16] S2: I think you have to, because I think a lot of times, not for all software, but for some software, like you're not going to have time to make a decision for what vendor to use. We noticed this with packages a lot, also in Cloud Code, scarily, but like, you know, it'll just decide which is the best package to for your product. And so they you'll probably end up picking vendors based off of that as well. And so I think you have to do that in order to compete. You need to make it easy for people to sign up, create accounts, pay as much as possible because not everyone's going to want to meet with someone. There are exceptions, of course, like infrastructure, security products, like someone will want to It's still a trust based business where you want to meet with someone, want to gauge how trustworthy someone is and if you can really rely on them. But for a lot of like very simple use cases, yeah, don't, you get an agent, an agent can make the choice.
00:36:00 · Gil Feig
[00:36:00] S0: And also headless really removes a lot of the barrier of learning any new platform, like even Salesforce, which isn't necessarily a technical platform. Like you, I can remember the first time going in and being like, what is an opportunity? I just don't grasp this concept makes no sense Yeah. To But like, technically, let's say you want to have this, this whole business that you're running, you know, you are the one person company that's the next unicorn or whatever. You can't be knowing the intricacies of your hosting platform and of Salesforce and of everything, but you need all that stuff and you need those functions going. But, know, and Lovable is a great example, right? Like you have your site, Lovable deploys it, it gets it running in the cloud. Maybe it's not like infinitely scalable, but it works. There's no reason that you shouldn't be able to tell an agent, you know, locally, go build this thing. And it deploys it to AWS in a very scalable way or to Cloudflare in a very scalable way. Like everything can just be built and done by a local agent without you needing to know how any of it functions, Just using using sort of headless integrations all from one central agent.