Fintech Insider Podcast by 11:FS
00:11:17 · Sarah Kocianski, S3
[00:11:17] S4: There's plenty of food for thought there. Think I think there's plenty of things to dig into, I'm sure, on a later episode of this very podcast. For now, let's move on to Kate. So your wish is that money was less awkward to talk about. So why do you think we're still so uncomfortable discussing something that affects almost every part of our lives? I'm going to put it [00:11:36] S3: out there that I don't [00:11:37] S4: think anybody on this podcast is uncomfortable talking about money, I suspect that there are many
00:11:41 · Kate Moody
[00:11:41] S2: people listening who are. Yeah, I suppose, you know, I see this firsthand in the primary research we do on the sort of consulting side of our business. And when we're interviewing people, trying to really map out kind of those, those systems that they use and the jobs we've that they have. Yeah, I, even after doing this for eight years, I'm still amazed how at the end of most interviews, especially when you're speaking to people in the retail space or maybe even small business owners, people quite often sort of look quite relieved, like they've had almost like a sort of quasi therapy session. And so many people say like, oh, did I say things that were helpful? Did I, does everyone else make the same types of decisions or mistakes that I make? So yeah, suppose I see it in a research capacity that it feels like it's a much more unique environment for people to find themselves in than I it should be. And you can completely understand why, how much you earn or how much you spend, the kind of decisions you're making about how you prioritise your money as well, are reflective not just of your choices as an individual but you know, your perceived worth I guess in terms of the work that you're doing and how you're being paid and all sort of stuff. And there's all sorts of really established cultural norms about surrounding money and talking about money that hold people back. But you know the fact that we don't talk about money also helps sustain lots of negative things, know like pay discrepancy and gaps in sort of achievement and outcomes across different communities. So yeah, I mean that would I've I've generally no idea fundamentally how we solve this and treat everyone else's perspectives, but I really, you know, given the whole remit of the show is just throw wishes out into the ether, this is just definitely something I really wish was was fixable. Is it partly as
00:13:20 · Sarah Kocianski, Kate Moody
[00:13:20] S4: well because it would make your job so much easier if people were more willing to talk to you about their money? [00:13:25] S2: Well, I mean, I've got quite chubby cheeks, so I tend to find that those help to break down people's anxieties. But yeah, I mean, think it's something that probably is a solution for. I'm maybe just not smart enough to have found it just yet. [00:13:40] S4: Well, I mean, I think potentially what do you think financial institutions could do? Like it doesn't have to be you who finds the answer. So what do you think financial institutions across the board could do to make subjects, you know, like certainly some of the more complex financial services products as well, more relevant and therefore easier for people to talk about, I suppose.
00:14:00 · Kate Moody
[00:14:00] S2: It feels to me like we've ended up in this sort of situation where people like there's so many parts of managing money, making financial decisions that are just objectively hard and difficult. And I think we've ended up in a scenario where people don't feel the vast majority of people don't feel like they can get help and support in an easy way. And so people have kind of got used to either just trying to work things out by themselves and failing and so quite often repressing or delaying a decision. And kind of when you've flipped to other industries, obviously we know that financial services is very unique, but you know, obviously there are lots of other heavily regulated industries where they have maybe overlapping issues. If you took the health industry, for example, like if you had a medical problem and you went to go, you'd go to see a doctor because you would believe you would understand and know that a doctor's job is to help you understand and solve that problem. And obviously we've got, we've had historically lots of financial guidance, but again, if I extended that metaphor, if I went to a doctor and all they gave me back was some guidance about how I could operate on myself, I probably wouldn't be enormously thrilled. So again, I think we need to, the industry probably needs to try and find ways which are obviously very difficult to move more towards a model where when people do have to make fundamentally difficult or complex decisions, there is somewhere where they can go to talk about something, to explain their situation and to receive help and support that is going to help them make a decision that is right for them. And obviously we've seen movements towards that, have the SDN UK kind of introducing childhood support, know, whether that goes far enough, I guess I'm sure isn't probably right for us to discuss in this podcast, but people across the industry acknowledge that there is a gap here. And I think if people had a sense that they could take the hard parts of money somewhere, maybe it would open up more of a conversation around it.
00:15:52 · Sarah Kocianski
[00:15:52] S4: Yeah, I mean Ross, there's obviously a cultural point here that Kate's touched on and I think perhaps the British are particularly bad at feeling comfortable about talking about their personal finances, whether that's what they earn, what they spend, etcetera. But do you think the financial services industry has contributed to that in some way on top of kind of the underlying Britishness of things?
00:16:13 · Ross Gallagher
[00:16:13] S5: Yeah, I do. I think there is inherent complexity. I think if I tie it back to sort of my wish, and actually I think it links neatly in with Kate's sort of hospital or sort of surgery comparison. I think again, what we do as an industry far too often is we talk about products and the complexities of the products rather than talking about specific customer outcomes and that the products are a tool or a mix of tools that sort of get you to an outcome. And I think, you know, yeah, I I agree that there's there's definitely cultural factors that play into this, but I think we all have a deep seated insecurity when it comes to dealing with things that we don't fully understand. I think we all bury our heads a little bit and procrastinate on the things that we can't quite figure out. And sure, we know that they're important, but actually, you know, when it comes to, oh gosh, I've got to sit down, I've got to figure this out by myself and oh my gosh, what if I'm wrong? I think that's intimidating. I it puts people off. So, I think when we're talking about the complexities of products, and I think if I go back to what I was saying on the previous section about particularly some of the more complex products around investment. I think some of the language, particularly some of the sort of small print language that we've always sort of positioned quite prominently when it's come to advertisements about things like investments, the value of your investment may go down as well as up. You could lose all of your investment, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, I think it's almost positioned them as much more speculative than they are, almost positioned them alongside things like gambling, things like crypto. I think we're backpedaling a little bit on that certainly in The UK. I think we recognize now that as part of a blend of financial products, I think investments are a very useful tool in terms of saving and building for your future. But I think likewise with pensions, as I say, I think we've just accepted this narrative that, oh, well, customers aren't really interested in pensions. They don't really understand them. So we'll just let them be this passive product in the background instead of actively trying to engage customers in the benefits.