Business Breakdowns
· Luke Bridgeman
So it goes out, it has a team of geologists and it's real bootstrapping. They do the geological work, stake a claim, structure a royalty into that claim, and then over time they might sell that claim to another company or they might list it. So they end up with a royalty and potentially an ownership interest in a company which is exploiting that mineral interest. And over time they can hold onto or sell that equity interest, that ownership interest – but it will tend to hold onto the royalty for much longer. So in the last mining cycle, Altius invested – this is the period up to 2011 – Altius invested about $30 million in project generation deals. So a rate of $2 or $3 million a year, small amounts of money. But it monetized $200 million from selling the equity proceeds from those while holding onto the associated royalties. So that's how royalties come into being for owners of mines to raise capital, for a project generation company like Altius to actually create the thing in the first place, or for governments to sell the mineral interests which they have in land in order for other projects to be accomplished.
· Matt Reustle, Luke Bridgeman
[00:00:00] S0: It's a concept that I think really gets to the academic theory of finance and thinking about these extended periods of cash flows. To your point, you mentioned a lot of the interesting dynamics about it being at the top line versus at the bottom line and why you would consider different things here. I think you answered this in the last part of that answer, but in terms of where Altius is buying these royalties or entering into these contracts – is it usually in the build-out stage of a mine where there's still a lot of risk that exists? I'm just wondering where in the spectrum of a mine and its production that royalties will typically be sold. You can imagine the price of that royalty will differ based on how much the mine is derisked. [00:00:00] S1: Once the mine is up and running, then the owner of the mine is going to be reluctant to sell any sort of equity interest in that project. So it tends to be a lot earlier, and Altius has that geological expertise, which means it's comfortable transacting and structuring deals at a very early stage, often before mine development, for example. They come in all shapes and sizes, and Altius has acquired existing royalties off other owners as well. A very big theme of Altius is just counter-cyclicality. So when capital is scarce, there's the opportunity to get involved and structure something which is really interesting.
· Luke Bridgeman, Matt Reustle
[00:00:00] S1: Once the mine is up and running, then the owner of the mine is going to be reluctant to sell any sort of equity interest in that project. So it tends to be a lot earlier, and Altius has that geological expertise, which means it's comfortable transacting and structuring deals at a very early stage, often before mine development, for example. They come in all shapes and sizes, and Altius has acquired existing royalties off other owners as well. A very big theme of Altius is just counter-cyclicality. So when capital is scarce, there's the opportunity to get involved and structure something which is really interesting. [00:00:00] S0: Can you tell me the origin story of Altius? I think there's other mineral companies that exist – or excuse me, mineral royalty companies that exist. You can find them across industries. What is the backstory with Altius? [00:00:00] S1: Despite being quite an international company today – and it's got interest in mines in Canada and Brazil, Argentina, even Mali in Africa. As well as even more pre-production projects in other countries. Altius' story really begins 29 years ago in a university dormitory room, where a geology student called Brian Dalton and a few fellow students earned some money for themselves to fund their way through college, stalking and then reselling projects. They IPO'd a few years later in 1997, raising less than $1 million. The story since then is deploying capital counter-cyclically, and it's now a $2 billion company.
· Luke Bridgeman, Matt Reustle
[00:00:00] S1: Despite being quite an international company today – and it's got interest in mines in Canada and Brazil, Argentina, even Mali in Africa. As well as even more pre-production projects in other countries. Altius' story really begins 29 years ago in a university dormitory room, where a geology student called Brian Dalton and a few fellow students earned some money for themselves to fund their way through college, stalking and then reselling projects. They IPO'd a few years later in 1997, raising less than $1 million. The story since then is deploying capital counter-cyclically, and it's now a $2 billion company. [00:00:00] S0: You make it sound awfully simple in terms of the way that they approached it, I know it's not the case. In terms of what they did to differentiate themselves. It sounds like they have geologist, I don't know how much of a differentiator that actually is. That feels like it could or couldn't be the thoughtful capital allocation, which seems incredibly important in this business. But what did they do to stand out from a peer group that existed or from anyone who might be competing over these same deals?
· Matt Reustle, Luke Bridgeman
[00:00:00] S0: You make it sound awfully simple in terms of the way that they approached it, I know it's not the case. In terms of what they did to differentiate themselves. It sounds like they have geologist, I don't know how much of a differentiator that actually is. That feels like it could or couldn't be the thoughtful capital allocation, which seems incredibly important in this business. But what did they do to stand out from a peer group that existed or from anyone who might be competing over these same deals? [00:00:00] S1: The key is to be countercyclical. Mining is inherently a cyclical business, and I think Altius' success has been to deploy capital ahead of cycles and to harvest capital as those cycles peak. So way back, the uranium cycle in the first decade of this century was a key part of Altius's development, which it successfully exited, selling its uranium exposure in around '08 and '09. And then I think – and this is testament to the very strong management at Altius, its long-term approach and its countercyclical mindset – it really sat on its hands until around 2013, 2014 when it started looking for cash flowing royalties and deployed into a few big deals in the middle of that decade – 2015, 2016. When they were really the only game in town when it came to providing capital to mining projects after the supercycle had come to an end.
· Luke Bridgeman, Matt Reustle
[00:00:00] S1: The key is to be countercyclical. Mining is inherently a cyclical business, and I think Altius' success has been to deploy capital ahead of cycles and to harvest capital as those cycles peak. So way back, the uranium cycle in the first decade of this century was a key part of Altius's development, which it successfully exited, selling its uranium exposure in around '08 and '09. And then I think – and this is testament to the very strong management at Altius, its long-term approach and its countercyclical mindset – it really sat on its hands until around 2013, 2014 when it started looking for cash flowing royalties and deployed into a few big deals in the middle of that decade – 2015, 2016. When they were really the only game in town when it came to providing capital to mining projects after the supercycle had come to an end. [00:00:00] S0: You touched on uranium exposure that they then sold. How have they approached the diversification of mineral exposure? You went through a long list at the beginning of this conversation, but what is the general thought process in terms of – are they making a call on these cycles in some way or another based on their exposure?