Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
· Kareem Amin, Patrick O'Shaughnessy
[00:00:00] S1: Yeah, if we go back to capital-T Truth, it’s understanding that. And then I understand why, in philosophical traditions or even religions, there’s this idea of remembrance. I can get that momentary understanding, but then remembering it in the moment, when I’m making a decision about my business or my personal life, is very tricky. But I do think that that is what’s necessary for us to get to the next stage of what’s interesting in the world. There’s so many mysteries, so many interesting things, and I feel, probably like many other people, that we’re squabbling in circular ways around the same nonsense. My real anger is, what are we doing? We’re wasting our human potential, we’re wasting our time. [00:00:00] S0: If I hear and digest all of that, and then I imagine, okay, this guy is now running a software startup, I might imagine that that startup is run in some unusual ways. So I’m curious what those are, and why you arrived at unusual ways of running the business.
· Kareem Amin
[00:00:00] S1: Yes, there are some unusual ways in which we run the business, but also I think it’s important to be careful of how much you push ideas onto other people, or project your beliefs onto them, and also to remember what context you’re working in. It’s almost like telling a story. If this is the normal way to run a business, and then you think that it’s this completely bizarro way over here, you also need to take the steps to tell the story. And I think it’s the same in product development. I can’t just give you a product that you have no context for. You don’t even understand how to interact with it. It’s like, hey, these are my personal beliefs and interests that underlie some of the normal activities we do. And then there’s adjustments that we make. I’d say the first and most important way is that it’s a felt experience in the company, of how we treat people and how we think about their personal development. But there are concrete ways in which it shows up. One way is that we overinvest in things that people typically underinvest in. We’ve overinvested in recruiting, in brand, in content, in community building. We’ve hired people who are very overqualified in some of these roles, who are doing it for the first time. For example, we published an article about this with one person who was an early employee, Mishti. She took a content role. She would’ve never taken a content role. It’s typically not the most highly paid thing in a company, or it’s extra. And we compensated her like a PM and we’re like, go do it. So we take those kinds of risks, and then we stick with it. Another thing, by the way, with risks — when you couple risk and courage, the next part is commitment. You actually need to follow through to see what ends up happening. You can’t just quit in the beginning. We take that seriously. And if we see somebody is really skilled or has some star potential, we stay with it for way longer than most. Everybody talks about hiring fast and firing fast. We’ve had people who, nine months in, were floundering, and we’re like, this person is excellent. I know they are, but what’s going on here? Is it the role? Is it the context? Is it our decision-making that’s limiting them? Eventually we find an amazing spot for that person and they become a superstar 50% of the time.
· Kareem Amin, Patrick O'Shaughnessy
The other 50% of the time, this person might be really special, but we just can’t create the conditions for them, or they’re too far away. One thing I’ve talked to my co-founder Varun about, we’re never pissed off when someone doesn’t work out. We’re like, hey, you’re just— we’re here and you’re here. Maybe along the journey one day you’ll get there, but you’re not getting there fast enough. You don’t have what we need at this moment. So I don’t even have an opinion on whether you’re good or bad. People are like, this person was good, this person was bad. Were you good in the moment that we needed you to be? You might also be super skilled, but you just didn’t perform here. I’ve had people who are incredible — I know they’re incredible — and they couldn’t perform here for a variety of reasons, and they’ve gone to other places and done a really good job. So I think it’s important to be nuanced. There are some other things people have covered about us in the past. For example, I like clowning — I discovered clowning. [00:00:00] S0: What's clowning?
· Patrick O'Shaughnessy, Kareem Amin
[00:00:00] S0: What's clowning? [00:00:00] S1: I was in SF at a party and someone was telling me that they were going to go to this clowning workshop, and I was like, what is that? I think of it as edgy improv. There are about four types of clowning. Physical clowning, which is the one you would imagine when you think of clowning. There is emotional range — let me make you happy, then make you sad, then make you happy, so you can feel the full range. There’s the jester, which is like telling truth to power. Then there’s the trickster, which I think is pretty interesting — how do I tell you spiritual truths through jokes? You realize, hey, everything does change. That’s like a truth about the world, but I get you to experience that. We are really into magicians at Clay. We incorporate it into our events, or things that we do, and we take risks. Our brand takes a lot of risks, way more risks than I think general B2B brands, and that’s why people love the brand and the company. It’s authentic to us, but it’s also honest. It’s trying to really cut through and be like, hey, we think you’ll be interested in this, and we’re not hedging. I think a lot of times people are authentic but hedging, so they’re not really saying what they want to say because they’re afraid of the consequences. [00:00:00] S0: What have you learned from magicians?
· Kareem Amin
[00:00:00] S1: I actually think the trickster thing is the thing that’s been a common thread between us. There’s this place called 69 Atlantic that we’d been going to — it’s a small speakeasy for magic, close-up magic. There were about 23 spaces in the back of this bookstore, and they get world-class magicians every month. And the thing that I remember from these really incredible magicians is that it’s not just a sleight-of-hand thing. There’s a storytelling component. It’s kind of wild. A lot of them are telling a story of a deep understanding of how your mind works or how the world works — where they’re like, hey, I’m showing you this thing, and really what they’re trying to do is spark curiosity. We’re gonna do something about this at Clay. We’re calling it re-enchanting the world. In a world where there is AI — it’s literally magic in some form. And to remember that this is magic, a lot of these things that we’re sitting in front of are still magic. It’s pretty wild. And to re-enchant the world again, and not make it this boring place where you think you understand how it works, ’cause you really don’t. So I think they’re doing simple things to reignite that feeling of wonder. And I think if you take that feeling of wonder into your everyday life, you’re a more friendly person, because you’re not like, oh, I understand how this person works, or how this works. You’re more curious. It makes you more curious about our customers. It makes us interact in a more pleasant way, because we’re like, oh, there’s stuff to learn here. I think what I’ve actually been getting from this magic stuff is remembering what it feels like to be like, I have no idea how this is working. I can’t even begin to comprehend how to think about it. I know that it’s a trick, but I can’t figure it out.
· Patrick O'Shaughnessy
[00:00:00] S0: For whatever reason, this makes me wonder the same question about music — the role that music plays and has played in your life, and what you’ve learned from your many, many experiences with music.