Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
· Kareem Amin, Patrick O'Shaughnessy
And in the company, I noticed I’m like, where’s the next one going to come from? Now I’m aware of that, and I’m aware of when I have enough, and then I can take more risk. I don’t need to accumulate something way beyond what we actually need. [00:00:00] S0: What was the day five insight, or was that the insight itself? [00:00:00] S1: It’s hard to describe because it’s an experiential thing. I think it was a momentary experience of understanding what matters, because I felt like, oh, I’m connected to all things — really bizarrely — just feeling like, hey, I’m a component, or part of this whole thing, and I’m connected to all things and they all matter. I had this thought of, one, I’m no better and no worse than anyone else, but also it made me feel this real empathy when I see someone who’s suffering. I’m just like, oh, they’re also me. Not that I empathize with them as if I were them. I’m like, this is actually me. That’s kind of a really out-there thought, or belief. [00:00:00] S0: The strange thing is, it’s actually not at all — it’s like the longest-lasting set of beliefs in the deepest, richest philosophical traditions. [00:00:00] S1: Yeah. Today it’s still niche. [00:00:00] S0: It’s this abstract idea today, but quite an old one.
· Patrick O'Shaughnessy, Kareem Amin
[00:00:00] S0: It’s this abstract idea today, but quite an old one. [00:00:00] S1: But it used to be kind of a common thing, supported with religion. But to me, what was crazy wasn’t the idea. It was the experience of really feeling that. And then knowing that when I hear something in Buddhism — there’s just freedom of all beings, or knowing that the suffering of one person is the suffering of everyone. So, back to the justice thing — I can’t solve everybody’s problems. And in fact, it would be hurting me to try to help someone when I don’t have capacity. But to really know every single person — they’re carrying it for me — rather than thinking they fucked up or they screwed up, and I’m better because I worked hard and did X, Y, and Z. [00:00:00] S0: Just to bring it back to our statues — is that then truth? The day five insight, is that just truth? [00:00:00] S1: Yeah, if we go back to capital-T Truth, it’s understanding that. And then I understand why, in philosophical traditions or even religions, there’s this idea of remembrance. I can get that momentary understanding, but then remembering it in the moment, when I’m making a decision about my business or my personal life, is very tricky. But I do think that that is what’s necessary for us to get to the next stage of what’s interesting in the world. There’s so many mysteries, so many interesting things, and I feel, probably like many other people, that we’re squabbling in circular ways around the same nonsense. My real anger is, what are we doing? We’re wasting our human potential, we’re wasting our time.
· Kareem Amin, Patrick O'Shaughnessy
[00:00:00] S1: Yeah, if we go back to capital-T Truth, it’s understanding that. And then I understand why, in philosophical traditions or even religions, there’s this idea of remembrance. I can get that momentary understanding, but then remembering it in the moment, when I’m making a decision about my business or my personal life, is very tricky. But I do think that that is what’s necessary for us to get to the next stage of what’s interesting in the world. There’s so many mysteries, so many interesting things, and I feel, probably like many other people, that we’re squabbling in circular ways around the same nonsense. My real anger is, what are we doing? We’re wasting our human potential, we’re wasting our time. [00:00:00] S0: If I hear and digest all of that, and then I imagine, okay, this guy is now running a software startup, I might imagine that that startup is run in some unusual ways. So I’m curious what those are, and why you arrived at unusual ways of running the business.
· Kareem Amin
[00:00:00] S1: Yes, there are some unusual ways in which we run the business, but also I think it’s important to be careful of how much you push ideas onto other people, or project your beliefs onto them, and also to remember what context you’re working in. It’s almost like telling a story. If this is the normal way to run a business, and then you think that it’s this completely bizarro way over here, you also need to take the steps to tell the story. And I think it’s the same in product development. I can’t just give you a product that you have no context for. You don’t even understand how to interact with it. It’s like, hey, these are my personal beliefs and interests that underlie some of the normal activities we do. And then there’s adjustments that we make. I’d say the first and most important way is that it’s a felt experience in the company, of how we treat people and how we think about their personal development. But there are concrete ways in which it shows up. One way is that we overinvest in things that people typically underinvest in. We’ve overinvested in recruiting, in brand, in content, in community building. We’ve hired people who are very overqualified in some of these roles, who are doing it for the first time. For example, we published an article about this with one person who was an early employee, Mishti. She took a content role. She would’ve never taken a content role. It’s typically not the most highly paid thing in a company, or it’s extra. And we compensated her like a PM and we’re like, go do it. So we take those kinds of risks, and then we stick with it. Another thing, by the way, with risks — when you couple risk and courage, the next part is commitment. You actually need to follow through to see what ends up happening. You can’t just quit in the beginning. We take that seriously. And if we see somebody is really skilled or has some star potential, we stay with it for way longer than most. Everybody talks about hiring fast and firing fast. We’ve had people who, nine months in, were floundering, and we’re like, this person is excellent. I know they are, but what’s going on here? Is it the role? Is it the context? Is it our decision-making that’s limiting them? Eventually we find an amazing spot for that person and they become a superstar 50% of the time.
· Kareem Amin, Patrick O'Shaughnessy
The other 50% of the time, this person might be really special, but we just can’t create the conditions for them, or they’re too far away. One thing I’ve talked to my co-founder Varun about, we’re never pissed off when someone doesn’t work out. We’re like, hey, you’re just— we’re here and you’re here. Maybe along the journey one day you’ll get there, but you’re not getting there fast enough. You don’t have what we need at this moment. So I don’t even have an opinion on whether you’re good or bad. People are like, this person was good, this person was bad. Were you good in the moment that we needed you to be? You might also be super skilled, but you just didn’t perform here. I’ve had people who are incredible — I know they’re incredible — and they couldn’t perform here for a variety of reasons, and they’ve gone to other places and done a really good job. So I think it’s important to be nuanced. There are some other things people have covered about us in the past. For example, I like clowning — I discovered clowning. [00:00:00] S0: What's clowning?
· Patrick O'Shaughnessy, Kareem Amin
[00:00:00] S0: What's clowning? [00:00:00] S1: I was in SF at a party and someone was telling me that they were going to go to this clowning workshop, and I was like, what is that? I think of it as edgy improv. There are about four types of clowning. Physical clowning, which is the one you would imagine when you think of clowning. There is emotional range — let me make you happy, then make you sad, then make you happy, so you can feel the full range. There’s the jester, which is like telling truth to power. Then there’s the trickster, which I think is pretty interesting — how do I tell you spiritual truths through jokes? You realize, hey, everything does change. That’s like a truth about the world, but I get you to experience that. We are really into magicians at Clay. We incorporate it into our events, or things that we do, and we take risks. Our brand takes a lot of risks, way more risks than I think general B2B brands, and that’s why people love the brand and the company. It’s authentic to us, but it’s also honest. It’s trying to really cut through and be like, hey, we think you’ll be interested in this, and we’re not hedging. I think a lot of times people are authentic but hedging, so they’re not really saying what they want to say because they’re afraid of the consequences. [00:00:00] S0: What have you learned from magicians?