00:49:19 · Eric Jorgenson
[00:49:19] S1: Churn is a frame that's kind of used usually for, like, customers quitting a product. And so it's it's sort of an inherently negative frame. And I'm not sure that that's totally the right frame. Right? People are the right people for different companies at different times. And one of the things Elon's point out is like, you generally turn a whole company over at each order of magnitude or 80% or something like that. And companies like Tesla and SpaceX are growing so quickly that in particular in leadership positions, the the person to take the company from a 100,000,000 to a billion is a different, you know, VP than the person who's gonna take the company from a billion to 10,000,000,000. And a two year tenure looks short at a typical company, but a two year tenure where you covered an order of magnitude is a great tour of duty, especially if it's one where your lifestyle is completely compromised as the employee, right, where you're like, you know, I I seven. Yeah. Or working twenty four seven or or living on Quatch or, you know, if your family's in LA and you're working at Starbase, that's not a a situation that people necessarily wanna be in for ten or fifteen years, and there's not an inherent moral good to working at one place for twenty years. I feel like that's a pretty kind of outdated idea. But I think I think, you know, fresh new talent, the ability to rise quickly, the ability to prove yourself quickly, and understanding that you have a relatively short period of underperformance before you'd be pushed out of an organization is a way to keep the bar really high.
00:50:50 · Ty Morse
[00:50:50] S0: On the idea of ruthlessness and being willing to be disliked, I think Elon doesn't actually like people not liking him, even though he is willing to be disliked. If you look at the people that he surrounds himself with, they typically don't voice, at least publicly, any feelings that they have that are not positive. And if they do, then they are no longer in his inner circle very quickly. Let's talk about, like, his willingness to kind of be disliked and and kind of be ruthless.
00:51:19 · Eric Jorgenson
[00:51:19] S1: It is interesting that at the same time, he, sort says empathy is not an asset, and he has the willingness to be disliked, which I think is true. Like, I think you could not have done what he's done if you didn't have the ability to put sort of the mission ahead of how someone feels about you. Like, he's had to run through wall after wall. He's, had to do so many difficult things and have so many difficult conversations over the course of what he's done, that I think it's... I think it is true that he has, at least in many ways, steeled himself to being disliked, preventing him from getting something done that needs to get done. So I... That... I take that as the frame for kind of the empathy is not an asset, like the willingness to be disliked as an advantage, in particular, if you're trying to do something innovative, in particular, if you're trying to... If you're taking on an industry, of course, that industry is gonna, attack you in any way that it possibly can. So one of the other things that he's doing at the same time, though, is also sort of running a pretty public campaign about, hey, I'm not a bad billionaire. Like, I sold all my stuff. I don't want these, like, attack vectors of being overly materialistic. I want it to be clear that I'm not sitting on billions of dollars in a bank account not doing anything. Like, he has a high net worth that comes from stock, which comes from controlling the companies that he's in control of, that he started or funded. So he he does really... I think it matters to him, to not be unfairly characterized. Like
00:52:47 · Ty Morse
[00:52:47] S0: Yeah. If you have a different opinion about him than he may have, that's okay. But he just... He wants to make sure that basically you're not, like, unfairly targeting him for, like, having a car where... Yeah. Which is, like, a thinking person's,
00:53:01 · Eric Jorgenson
[00:53:01] S1: like, you know, way to go through life anyway. Like, I I think I think he... He's just become a lightning rod for, you know, contrary. He's one of the most famous people alive. And, in some ways, courted that. In some ways, it's just a natural byproduct of building some of the things he's building and having led the organizations that he's leading. But it is a very tricky thing. And I think he has a deep sense of, like, you know, right and wrong and injustice. And I imagine, you know, in particular, like, with his dad. Right? His dad is a relatively well known to be a a liar and a manipulator and has abused, you know, him and his family in the past. And, like, so people publicly saying, like, oh, you just, you know, you inherited your wealth because, you know, the dad claimed to be sort of providing these, these benefits. Like, that has to really hit the heart, like, a a very soft spot, and has to be enraging. Like, I... You know, how could it be anything else? Like, this person who tormented you claiming credit for something that you truly did yourself, and then other people who are your enemies for their own, you know, personal reasons than attack you, like, based on this false claim. Like, of course, anybody would would be like... That's not the kind of like, oh, yeah, just steal yourself to that kind of dislike. Of course, that would bother you. I can't imagine handling that kind of pressure. Right? Like, how many people want a 100,000,000 enemies, and are willing to stand on their principles to take that, and still show up and keep going over and over again. Like, it is a very... I do think he is very principled, and he's willing to endure being disliked to stand by those principles. And I think that's a, like, interesting and admirable thing. You know, the the Bill Gates example, of, like, Bill Gates claims to be a
00:55:01 · Ty Morse, Eric Jorgenson
[00:55:01] S0: Environmentally friendly, you know, let's save the environment. Yeah. He's, like, shorting Tesla. Exactly. [00:55:06] S1: Yeah. And, like, that is not... Those are not actions that Elon would take. Like, and there's many things that he could be rightly criticized for doing, and he he does seek negative or seek critical feedback on actions. But I do think, you know, to your point, expects a level of sort of, solidarity and loyalty, in particular from the people who are, like, closest to him on a public lane when he has so many people actively trying to undermine him, which which then undermines the success of the missions. Right? Like, there is an... A strong extent to which, like, additional capital, additional employees, all of these things come from public perception of him and his work and the importance of the missions. And, you know, it's not helpful to have people throwing Molotov cocktails at Tesla dealerships. That does not help Tesla. That does not help achieve the mission of solving climate change. And so I think, like, there's an extent to which being disliked... Being liked or disliked or at least understood to be on a mission and a principled person on a mission is an important part of getting these things done. [00:56:08] S0: There's one aspect which is setting the vision, setting the mission, making sure that everyone's aligned towards it. [00:56:14] S1: Mhmm.