00:28:12 · Jaron Lanier, Danny Fortson
[00:28:12] S7: So one of the things is that because computer networks often have a structure that... Where the things called network effects creates a natural monopolies on one layer or another that then become more and more reinforced, they do have a tendency to create these mega powerful individuals at the center of them. And I would prefer to see better governance of these things because they are so important and influential. But at any rate, we have a rather small number of individuals who are now the beneficiaries of those network effects. And they tend to be, not always, but they tend to be a type of person who's better at dealing with the digital stuff and looking away from what might be side effects of it. But, you know, the the people are all different. They're not exactly cookie cutters. So another thing that happened is people got addicted to their own, devices. So some of these people I've known a little and some of them a little more over the years, and some of them have really changed from interacting with their own things. Like, I I think Elon Musk was changed by Twitter Yeah. By the constant interaction with it to become more narrow and hardened in a way. The same thing happened to Donald Trump, who I used to know a little bit. And now that's not true for all of the people in this position, but the overall setup doesn't allow somebody to be a good actor in that role. There's not really a way to be a good actor while [00:29:43] S10: As a CEO of one of these companies? [00:29:46] S7: Right. Because you'd just be destroyed.
00:29:46 · Jaron Lanier, Danny Fortson
[00:29:46] S7: Right. Because you'd just be destroyed. [00:29:49] S10: Because that's the Anthropics whole thing is that we are the good guys. We are the ones doing this
00:29:55 · Jaron Lanier
[00:29:55] S7: the most. So let let me say a couple things about Anthropic. One is I have many friends at Anthropic, and many of the people I respect the most and think are are, in fact, the best human actors in the community work there. Yeah. That said, if somebody really feels a need to call out that what the company is doing is wrong, they have to leave, and that's a drag. Okay. But let us let us leave that aside for a second. Anthropic, like OpenAI, was founded on the self proclamation that we're the good guys. I mean, OpenAI is called OpenAI because that was supposed to signify being a good guy. And Anthropic, though, is the most religious of them all. Like, Anthropic has teams internally who are concerned with the well-being of the model as opposed to the human users, like this idea that the model itself is having feelings. And they've said the best way to ensure human safety is if you make the model feel good, it'll be less likely, although no guarantee, it'll be less likely to do damage to people. So, yeah, Anthropic, in terms of self regard, they definitely think they're the best people. And in some ways, they are. They have hired people. Like, I mean, I I have to say, if you are an ethical, interesting person working in AI and you want a job, you're more likely to get it at Anthropic than anywhere else. However, the Anthropic official position is more worshipful of the new AI god than anyone else. And, ultimately, that's so damaging that it it trumps anything else. And so I think when you're embedded in the community, when you're in a deep belief community, you lose perspective. And I I really believe the people involved with that will someday come to have a sense that they could have done better and will realize that they were just embedded in this crazy cult like atmosphere. Again,
00:31:39 · Danny Fortson, Jaron Lanier, Katie Prescott, S0, S1, S2, S3, S4, S5, S6, S8
[00:31:39] S10: on that happy note, I guess. [00:31:40] S7: We will. I really I really believe we'll come through it. I don't think we'll come through it unscathed. [00:31:48] S11: Well, I think that's the first time we've had an octopus on the podcast. [00:31:52] S10: Yes. Indeed. First time for everything. First time for everything. [00:31:54] S11: Wow. It was really fascinating to hear his perspective. I mean, particularly this week of all weeks just following the Anthropic IPO document. [00:32:02] S10: Yes. Indeed. Yes, it is. And that is it. That is it for this week's episode. We've given you two, as usual, two episodes of The Times Tech Podcast. So please come back next week or subscribe. Follow us on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcast, wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss a future episode. And that is it. So I will see you, Katie, next week. [00:32:24] S11: See you next week. Keep future gazing. [00:32:26] S10: Will do. [00:32:26] S11: Goodbye. [00:32:27] S10: Goodbye. Bye. [00:32:37] S0: People are disappearing again just like before. [00:32:43] S1: Nocturne. Now streaming on Apple TV. Lief Schreiber. [00:32:49] S2: Walter has a way of getting to people. When he does, [00:32:51] S3: they don't come back. Steven Graham. The world [00:32:54] S4: is full of dark places. Celci Beats. [00:32:57] S5: How's he getting messages at? [00:32:58] S6: He's locked under six feet of concrete. [00:33:00] S7: She's still alive. [00:33:01] S8: I'm a fighter. [00:33:02] S1: Nocturne. Now streaming on Apple TV. Subscription required.
00:33:02 · S1, S9, S12
[00:33:02] S1: Nocturne. Now streaming on Apple TV. Subscription required. [00:33:08] S9: At PwC, we optimize the systems that put your data to work so you can scale your AI from proof of concept to competitive edge and accelerate your tech evolution so you can redefine what's possible. From blueprint to breakthrough, we take you further with tech so you can outthink, outpace, and outperform. PwC, so you can. PwC refers to the PwC network and or one or more of its member firms, each of which is a separate legal entity. [00:33:38] S12: When something significant happens in British politics, stories are always unfolding behind closed doors. The State of It podcast from The Times and The Sunday Times takes you inside the room where it happens. I'm Stephen Swinford, the political editor of The Times, and with me are Patrick Maguire, Lara Spirit, and Ben Riley Smith. We will bring you scoops and analysis about what is really going on in Westminster. Listen to The State of It twice a week wherever you get your podcasts.