Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
00:35:47 · Lenny Rachitsky, Adam Ward
[00:35:47] S0: Talk about that because it feels like that connects throughout this entire process. [00:35:50] S1: Yeah, I think there's all kind of tactics out there that are of varying degrees of cost, but out-caring other companies, when I've built recruiting teams, that's something that we've always talked about. We can care more about that candidate than anyone else. That's in us, that's within us. We can do that. And I think over the history of time, when you look at candidate satisfaction scores, the number one thing that's always there is, "The company generally wanted me. They made it feel like I belong there." And so the more that we can care for our candidates and demonstrate that, I think is an unfair advantage and it's in all of us. And so that is an effort and that is a extra step type of thing. It's the extra intentionality that you take that I think in a very somewhat feeling like transactional business, like recruiting, if you're doing this step-by-step funnel of doom, you get caught up in the steps. You get caught up in the numbers game. "I need to reach out to a hundred to get to 20. I need to have 10 hire manager screens to get four onsite." You get caught up in the numbers and you lose the human element. You're looking for the one. It's like I tried to remind my team, "We're trying to hire one person for this role here, not 10. So don't get caught up in the 10, focus on the one."
00:37:08 · Lenny Rachitsky, Adam Ward
[00:37:08] S0: That is such a big reframe in this way of thinking. As you said, instead of this funnel of we need 200 people at the top to get one at the bottom, you're just like, "Here's the 50 people that would be the best 50 in the world for this. We just need one of these 50." It feels a lot more doable. [00:37:24] S1: And hopefully we're building relationships with dozens of other of those that could be... So when you talk about this being slow, we're planting seeds, planting seeds, we're planting seeds. And I think the other thing that often happens when you get into this funnel of doom mentality is I think you become overly consistent in your hiring approach. And we are very comfortable with bespoke and ad hoc hiring. That doesn't mean we don't have similar stages for... But who that next conversation is, what they might focus on, I think we get a little robotic sometimes in recruiting with that. So a lot of companies, as they get into higher volume hiring, they might like, "Hey, we have a pool of these interviewers who can do this type of interview." And they just let fate decide. They let availability decide who has that next conversation. But the savvy recruiter or the savvy hiring manager is like, "Ooh, they mentioned this thing. Who on our team has that shared interest in that pool? Can we be a little bit more prescriptive? And can we orchestrate a much better candidate experience by taking the extra thoughtful step of who might have a better conversation together?"
00:37:24 · Adam Ward, Lenny Rachitsky
[00:37:24] S1: And hopefully we're building relationships with dozens of other of those that could be... So when you talk about this being slow, we're planting seeds, planting seeds, we're planting seeds. And I think the other thing that often happens when you get into this funnel of doom mentality is I think you become overly consistent in your hiring approach. And we are very comfortable with bespoke and ad hoc hiring. That doesn't mean we don't have similar stages for... But who that next conversation is, what they might focus on, I think we get a little robotic sometimes in recruiting with that. So a lot of companies, as they get into higher volume hiring, they might like, "Hey, we have a pool of these interviewers who can do this type of interview." And they just let fate decide. They let availability decide who has that next conversation. But the savvy recruiter or the savvy hiring manager is like, "Ooh, they mentioned this thing. Who on our team has that shared interest in that pool? Can we be a little bit more prescriptive? And can we orchestrate a much better candidate experience by taking the extra thoughtful step of who might have a better conversation together?" [00:38:34] S0: It's so interesting hearing just how important that initial contact is for the rest of the process and how much of this is for future seed planting versus even immediately.
00:38:34 · Lenny Rachitsky, Adam Ward
[00:38:34] S0: It's so interesting hearing just how important that initial contact is for the rest of the process and how much of this is for future seed planting versus even immediately. [00:38:42] S1: Yeah, I feel like we put so much energy to the onsite interview, which I totally get. But honestly, the most important one is that hiring manager first conversation. And so it feels like this 50/50 like, "Hey, half the people you talk to hiring manager should come out." And I think we underestimate the importance of it because this is who you're going to work with. This person's going to make the hiring decisions. And so they should be asking the most important questions. They should be pulling out the most important motivators from that candidate. And I feel like we sometimes maybe, we put it into a 30-minute thing often. It's 30 minutes, and it feels so important to the rest of that process. [00:39:20] S0: Especially if instead of, we just need this funnel and work through a bunch of people. This is one of the 50 in the world that could be the best for this. [00:39:26] S1: You might meet three times. You might meet four times as a hiring manager before that person actually is fully in process. [00:39:33] S0: The way Brie described this in her piece is that you treat hiring as... the atomic unit of hiring as the person, not the job spec and not the role.
00:39:33 · Lenny Rachitsky, Adam Ward
[00:39:33] S0: The way Brie described this in her piece is that you treat hiring as... the atomic unit of hiring as the person, not the job spec and not the role. [00:39:41] S1: Correct. And I think that makes it incredibly frustrating, imagine for my team, because you're like, "Oh, what's the..." And you're like, "Well..." It's almost like a decision tree. It could go many different ways based off of this conversation. But when you are not caught into the numbers game, it feels a little bit less scary when you're really focused on how do we get that person here versus are they the right person for that job? [00:40:08] S0: And because they're on this list, they're innately very popular and in demand. Is there anything else that works for getting them excited to talk and interested other than soft, the warm intro, things you've shared?
00:40:20 · Adam Ward
[00:40:20] S1: Yeah. I mean, we've done lots of tactics, I think, to get them involved. I mean, one thing I just love is breaking bread. Having a meal with someone is one of the most human and leveling things that you can do. Sharing a meal across the table is just a disarming act and a joining act that I think is just so important. So that could be a coffee, it could be a lunch. It doesn't need to be super formal, but I just think it is a humanizing activity that I think is really important. So we try to center around food and drink as much as possible. I think we've done other things I think are very useful, which is if they are one of these 50 people, they might be somewhat famous or well-respected. They probably have an expertise. Having them come in and give a talk to the team, having them come in and do a fun side project. These people, they love to share and learn and they're curious. But also it demonstrates increased interactivity between the two teams around quality and gives them this realistic preview of being there. We try to play home games as much as we can, bringing them into the office. But we also understand some of the folks early on might want to go to a neutral site of a coffee shop or something too. But we try to play home games when we can because you have the power of the team. You have the power... And so, one analogy I think about is sometimes when some people are considering university early in their lives, you walk onto a campus and you get that feel in your gut. And you can't really describe, but it's just like, "Ooh, this feels like home." We want people to feel that when they walk into the offices of Cursor and that is a priceless moment. And by the way, it can be a defining... It also could not hit. And it's good to suss that out early too. But for a lot of people, it does hit and we like that moment.