Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
00:31:29 · Lenny Rachitsky, Adam Ward
[00:31:29] S0: Amazing. So this is just a really good way to just, if we zoom out again, the way most companies hire, there's this funnel people apply, people refer, and they work through. And you try to reach out and work through and pick a few people at the bottom. And your point there is this is not the top people because they're not going to reply to you, they're not going to make it through the funnel. You don't even know what you're hiring for a lot of times. [00:31:49] S1: Right. Correct, correct. And by the way, all the hiring ideas aren't always great ideas. They aren't always right for us, but it becomes this almost tangential injection into the hiring process that is often a great outcome. [00:32:05] S0: And so just to maybe make very clear how different this approach is, basically it's the opposite. It's figure out who are the best top 50 people for this role in the world and then relentlessly pursue them. [00:32:19] S1: Yeah. [00:32:20] S0: So let's talk about that part of it, how to actually relentlessly pursue people. What are some tactics and stories there of just how you convince these top people to actually talk to you and then join?
00:32:30 · Adam Ward
[00:32:30] S1: Yeah. And I think one of the things you said a few minutes ago is around, "Hey, this can be a very slow process." And if you're at a zero point, you're at day zero, it can feel like a slow burn. But imagine over multiple days, you're actually planting all of these seeds with potential top 50 people. They're going to come to harvest at different rates, but you got to plant the seeds. You got to start. And because it will take weeks for some, months for others. I have stories of years of we've worked on candidates, but you have to start the clock on that. And so how we think about this relentless pursuit is you'll often reach... one step is just getting them into a conversation, getting a response, getting some kind of engagement. But most people will tell you, if you get them, it's like, "Not good timing. Here's all the reasons I can't do it." And you're like, "Hey, I'm not asking you to interview. I'm not asking you to consider a role. I'm asking for our next conversation." And so when you say, "Hey, it's not really good timing for me right now, maybe in the late fall." You're like, "Hey, I totally respect that's great. But also, you want to come by for a coffee and see the office? Can I introduce you to this other person on the team who's really fascinated by your work? Can you go chat?" And so you know it's not... Let's say it's true, they can't join till late fall. That doesn't mean you're not connecting them and having conversations on a weekly basis and working that piece. And it can only move it forward by doing nothing and actually talking to them in the late fall. At best you get them, even if they're still interested then or someone else hasn't grabbed them. So we think about this continual touchpoint approach to them, to getting them into process. But that could... Again, we're willing to do that over days, weeks, months, and sometimes years.
00:34:30 · Lenny Rachitsky, Adam Ward
[00:34:30] S0: When you reach out to someone, imagine working at Cursor now as part of SpaceX, it's like, "Oh, this is interesting and cool." And it's like, "Well, you never know, maybe it'll work out someday." A lot of companies... And you've worked with other companies that are not as interesting of a brand and as successful. Is there any advice for folks to get someone over the line to even talk that works? I imagine it's all very particular and nuanced, but just any advice there. [00:34:51] S1: Yeah, I think it's really spending a lot of time upfront to get a sense of what could be engaging for them. So who might that be and what might that topic be? And so there are a number of excellent people in the world who aren't on any platform. There's no information about them. But most, you can get a couple nuggets. We spend a lot of time here thinking about who can create a warm intro to that person. Almost as much effort goes into that than it does the actual messaging. Because if you get the right person, that accelerates it. And once someone's ignored one thing, it's much easier for them to ignore the second and third. But if you get the first one right, you've condensed that activation timeline and effort. [00:35:43] S0: I've heard that you often say caring is free. [00:35:46] S1: Yeah. [00:35:47] S0: Talk about that because it feels like that connects throughout this entire process.
00:35:47 · Lenny Rachitsky, Adam Ward
[00:35:47] S0: Talk about that because it feels like that connects throughout this entire process. [00:35:50] S1: Yeah, I think there's all kind of tactics out there that are of varying degrees of cost, but out-caring other companies, when I've built recruiting teams, that's something that we've always talked about. We can care more about that candidate than anyone else. That's in us, that's within us. We can do that. And I think over the history of time, when you look at candidate satisfaction scores, the number one thing that's always there is, "The company generally wanted me. They made it feel like I belong there." And so the more that we can care for our candidates and demonstrate that, I think is an unfair advantage and it's in all of us. And so that is an effort and that is a extra step type of thing. It's the extra intentionality that you take that I think in a very somewhat feeling like transactional business, like recruiting, if you're doing this step-by-step funnel of doom, you get caught up in the steps. You get caught up in the numbers game. "I need to reach out to a hundred to get to 20. I need to have 10 hire manager screens to get four onsite." You get caught up in the numbers and you lose the human element. You're looking for the one. It's like I tried to remind my team, "We're trying to hire one person for this role here, not 10. So don't get caught up in the 10, focus on the one."
00:37:08 · Lenny Rachitsky, Adam Ward
[00:37:08] S0: That is such a big reframe in this way of thinking. As you said, instead of this funnel of we need 200 people at the top to get one at the bottom, you're just like, "Here's the 50 people that would be the best 50 in the world for this. We just need one of these 50." It feels a lot more doable. [00:37:24] S1: And hopefully we're building relationships with dozens of other of those that could be... So when you talk about this being slow, we're planting seeds, planting seeds, we're planting seeds. And I think the other thing that often happens when you get into this funnel of doom mentality is I think you become overly consistent in your hiring approach. And we are very comfortable with bespoke and ad hoc hiring. That doesn't mean we don't have similar stages for... But who that next conversation is, what they might focus on, I think we get a little robotic sometimes in recruiting with that. So a lot of companies, as they get into higher volume hiring, they might like, "Hey, we have a pool of these interviewers who can do this type of interview." And they just let fate decide. They let availability decide who has that next conversation. But the savvy recruiter or the savvy hiring manager is like, "Ooh, they mentioned this thing. Who on our team has that shared interest in that pool? Can we be a little bit more prescriptive? And can we orchestrate a much better candidate experience by taking the extra thoughtful step of who might have a better conversation together?"
00:37:24 · Adam Ward, Lenny Rachitsky
[00:37:24] S1: And hopefully we're building relationships with dozens of other of those that could be... So when you talk about this being slow, we're planting seeds, planting seeds, we're planting seeds. And I think the other thing that often happens when you get into this funnel of doom mentality is I think you become overly consistent in your hiring approach. And we are very comfortable with bespoke and ad hoc hiring. That doesn't mean we don't have similar stages for... But who that next conversation is, what they might focus on, I think we get a little robotic sometimes in recruiting with that. So a lot of companies, as they get into higher volume hiring, they might like, "Hey, we have a pool of these interviewers who can do this type of interview." And they just let fate decide. They let availability decide who has that next conversation. But the savvy recruiter or the savvy hiring manager is like, "Ooh, they mentioned this thing. Who on our team has that shared interest in that pool? Can we be a little bit more prescriptive? And can we orchestrate a much better candidate experience by taking the extra thoughtful step of who might have a better conversation together?" [00:38:34] S0: It's so interesting hearing just how important that initial contact is for the rest of the process and how much of this is for future seed planting versus even immediately.