Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
00:18:28 · Lenny Rachitsky
[00:18:28] S1: I love that you found these things out not through just, like, research and not through just thinking. It was through actual trying things over and over and over and trying different audiences, trying different experiences. Like, a lot of people see your advice and are like, how does he know? It's just like you've done all these things yourself. You've seen them. You're, like, sitting there watching teens use these apps, and I think very few people actually do that. And they just come up with these theories that aren't based on empirical evidence.
00:18:53 · Nikita Bier
[00:18:53] S0: Yeah. So we we we got pretty good at at building these apps. I think our first mobile app took us about a year, and then our last one took us about two weeks. We also got very good at testing apps. And the the most important thing that I often instruct teams to do is to develop a reproducible testing process, and that will actually influence the probability of your success more than anything. It's so unpredictable whether a consumer product idea will work. And so if you actually focus more on your process for taking many shots at bat, that's what actually reduces the risk more than anything. And so we figured out ways to seed apps into, into schools. We also, like, during the course of that company, we figured out how to seed it into affinity groups, you know, hobbyists, things like that. So we were on app number 15. You know, there were a lot of failures, during during the course of this company. And I remember a lot of our team members were like, I I kind of wanna leave. I I think this is it for me. And, one one of our key team members, actually put in their two weeks notice, the day before we launch our our final app. We were also running... You know, we were getting kinda low on money. I was tired. And I I called our lawyer, to ask how do you dissolve a company. I messaged a few mentors saying, like, I... One, people that have been through it, and I said, you know, what what are the steps to to do this? And then I I I had a conversation on the way out with that that team member that wanted to leave, and I said, you know, I understand. But but what if the app actually starts charting on the App Store? And I... He just said, what are the chances of that? You know, it's it's... You know you know that's not gonna happen. And I said, sure. Okay. So we we launched this this app, and it was, you know, a polling app, TBH, and it immediately, took off in the school that we seeded it into, in in Georgia. We picked the one school that had the earliest start date in The United States because we needed to launch as soon as possible given the state of the company. And it just... I think it spread to, you know, 40% of the school downloaded it in the first 24, and it rapidly spread to the neighboring schools. And suddenly, was like, oh, we might have something here. And servers started crashing and watching it climb the charts. I I think within...
00:21:43 · Nikita Bier
I I I looked at our numbers and I'm like, we will be number one in The United States in, like, six days. And then I I looked at our Amazon bill, and it was, like, 120,000. I looked at our bank account. It said 150,000. I'm like, okay. These two numbers don't really, add up. So I I quickly had to put together a funding round, and I told our... My team, can you guys just pause for, like, two months and just, like, really focus on this? I think I could probably sell this thing. And so it turned into a a pretty, competitive bidding process, actually. There there was a really, really great moment where there was... One of the acquirers, that... Or one of the bidders was based in LA had told me to fly down, and they told me to fly down that day. So I got on a plane, went to the airport without a ticket, showed up. And when we were rolling out this app, we were doing a state by state rollout strategy where every state was geofenced. And we hadn't launched California until that morning. And I arrived, at this, this company and, this founder in LA's house, and he said, you know, show me the metrics. You guys are like, what, number four or something? And since we just launched California, it's a big state, I said, no. No. No. We're actually number one. We're the number one app in The United States. And I said, yeah. Show me the metrics. And our CTO was a published author... Eric Hazard is a published author in mapping. And so he he created an amazing dashboard that could show real time installs on a map. And it was around 4PM and school had just gotten out. So I zoomed in on the block that we were having that meeting, and the entire block was lit up with installs all around us. And so then that's what got the kind of, the ball rolling on a, you know, it was a it was a really really select cinematic moment of, you know, what... Showing something that you created that literally just took over the entire neighborhood around you.
00:24:02 · Lenny Rachitsky, Nikita Bier
[00:24:02] S1: That's insane. I I... That's gonna be in the movie of Nikita Bier in the future. Okay. So a couple questions here. So one, you predicted the chart, you would hit number one. How do you... What does it take to hit number one? Like, what is the number you're looking at? Is it some number downloads to get to number one in the App Store? [00:24:16] S0: It fluctuates. It used to be, like, like a 100 thou... 80 to a 100,000 installs, but now you have these companies that are just spending extraordinary amounts on ads and or injecting it into one of their other apps. So between threads, team moo, and all these other apps that are, kind of, spending on acquisition and all that, some days it's up to, like, 300,000. [00:24:40] S1: And that's per day? Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. Amazing. Okay. [00:24:43] S0: At the peak of TBH, we were getting 360,000 per day. [00:24:49] S1: Okay. The other two things I wanna spend a little time on here before we move on to the next step is, what was the insight that helped you come up with this is a big idea that we should try? And then what was the insight into how to spread this so virally? And I I know that one is really clever.
00:25:04 · Nikita Bier
[00:25:04] S0: After building all these apps, we had these kind of, like, lingering users that stuck around and would share feedback with us, on our next app. And so there were a couple, like, there's this senior in high school that I would send screenshots of our products. And, he told me about this trend called TBH that kids were playing on Snapchat where they would post an image of a bunch of emojis, and it would say, like, I like you. You're smart. Your style is great. And you would just reply to the story with the emoji of what you felt. And I was like, this is kinda weird. You post this on your story and then people send you feedback. And I'm like, so teens are looking for this, this, like, vang... Like, this vehicle for disclosure, essentially. And I'm like, that... That's kinda cool. I wonder if you can make that into an app. We, like, had sketched some things out. And, as we were kind of sketching things out, I looked on the App Store, and the number one app in The United States was an app called Sarahah. And it was for sending anonymous messages, by adding a link to your Snapchat story. But the thing that was most interesting was the entire app was in Arabic. The number one app in The United States was in Arabic. And that was one of the most, like, the strongest signal that you could ever have that people want something. And so when I meet with founders, I often tell them, like, the way you should be searching for product ideas is this concept of latent demand, where people are trying to obtain a particular value and going through a very distortive process to obtain that value. And if you can actually crystallize what their motivation is and build a product around and and clear up what they're trying to actually do, you can have this kind of, intense adoption. And, when we saw what people were doing with Sarahah, I I also looked at some of the tweets and comments on it. A lot of people were receiving negative messages. And so I... What I saw with the game that kids were playing on Snapchat, TBH, and then Sarahah, I realized just people want to know good things about themselves, and they they don't want, like, these bullying messages that they're getting on, these anonymous apps.
00:27:31 · Nikita Bier
And I was like, well, what if instead of actually typing what you wanted to say about somebody, you, just answered polls and reauthored those polls so that we ensured everything would be... Always be positive. And, I mean, in the back of my head, I always knew anonymous apps go viral, but they always lead to, like like, these awful news stories of kids committing suicide, you know, self harm, and all that. And so I was like, I... I'll never build anything like that. But, when we came up with this new mechanic where you can only say positive things through polls, you know, who has the best smile, who's most likely to be president, and then you receive it, and it's it's anonymous, but your name is selected. What we discovered a couple of things is it made users feel a lot better. It actually solved what they were trying to do, and they also sent a much higher volume of messages. And so it was it was literally explosive adoption. Like, one school I was looking at, they sent 450,000 messages in the first seven days of adopting it. And when you look at day one, like, volume of messages sent on a messaging app, You're lucky if people send, like, three or four or something, but we were sending, like, 60. And we we couldn't even handle it, so we had to, like, we had to geofence the app because it... We... You need to scale our servers, which is actually a pretty controversial decision inside of our company because, like, why would you turn off something that's working? But at my core, I knew, like, if it's working at this many, you know, in individual schools, we could just relaunch it anytime, and it'll just... It'll it'll go viral. So, let's let's let's regroup and figure out what's happening here and then... And relaunch.