Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
00:15:26 · Lenny Rachitsky, Nikita Bier
[00:15:26] S1: You spent four or five years trying a bunch of different ideas. I think people see this headline and will get into TBH of just, like, nine weeks after launch sells for $30,000,000 to Facebook, and everyone's like, oh, okay. That's amazing. I want that for my life. Nobody knows there's this, like, four or five years of trying, you said 15 different apps before you got there, learning the things that actually work and don't work. [00:15:49] S0: We built, like, 15 apps over that... The course of that pivot to consumer. And we built apps for, like, every single app, you know, map apps, chat apps, you know, to do list. We we just built every type of consumer app you could possibly think of. And, also, we built for every audience too. We built for college students. We built for, you know, post college, and it was always very difficult to get the flywheel spinning for anyone after, like, 22 years old. That that was, like, the cutoff of when people just have... Give up on adopting new products. And and that was a... We kinda... Like, it it took us a few years to really internalize that. A lot of failures to realize no one needs another app after that age. [00:16:44] S1: So the thing that you found there, which is really interesting, because most people are building for people older than 22. That's like a profound insight you had there. Like, every consumer app I see is, like, trying to build for adults. And your lesson there is basically if you're trying to do that, you're probably gonna need to raise money and spend a lot of money in pay downs.
00:17:03 · Nikita Bier
[00:17:03] S0: Yeah. And most likely, you'll never get network effects. There's actually an interesting study, like, many years ago that, like, some academics in Spain did, I think it was in Spain, and they looked at how many people you text, you know, per year of your life. And it goes up, like, very quickly from 14 to 18. It peaks around 21. So it's growing. The number of people you text is growing up until about 21, and then it just falls, it collapses. And then it comes back up in, at end of life. And there's a few reasons all this happens, but, basically, you know, once you exit college, you kind of reduce the number of contacts you have, your daily contacts. Once you get married, it's even fewer. And then when... As you get older, you know, you, and your your kids start having kids and you become a grandparent, you start texting again more and... Or you join a retirement home. But if you're building a product with network effects that's a communication tool, you wanna be on that ups... Upward curve of adding connections to your social graph because then the urgency to connect is higher. So if you really wanna actually innovate at the edges of communication products, you you you really have to target that cohort that has the highest urgency to communicate, and and that's teens.
00:18:28 · Lenny Rachitsky
[00:18:28] S1: I love that you found these things out not through just, like, research and not through just thinking. It was through actual trying things over and over and over and trying different audiences, trying different experiences. Like, a lot of people see your advice and are like, how does he know? It's just like you've done all these things yourself. You've seen them. You're, like, sitting there watching teens use these apps, and I think very few people actually do that. And they just come up with these theories that aren't based on empirical evidence.
00:18:53 · Nikita Bier
[00:18:53] S0: Yeah. So we we we got pretty good at at building these apps. I think our first mobile app took us about a year, and then our last one took us about two weeks. We also got very good at testing apps. And the the most important thing that I often instruct teams to do is to develop a reproducible testing process, and that will actually influence the probability of your success more than anything. It's so unpredictable whether a consumer product idea will work. And so if you actually focus more on your process for taking many shots at bat, that's what actually reduces the risk more than anything. And so we figured out ways to seed apps into, into schools. We also, like, during the course of that company, we figured out how to seed it into affinity groups, you know, hobbyists, things like that. So we were on app number 15. You know, there were a lot of failures, during during the course of this company. And I remember a lot of our team members were like, I I kind of wanna leave. I I think this is it for me. And, one one of our key team members, actually put in their two weeks notice, the day before we launch our our final app. We were also running... You know, we were getting kinda low on money. I was tired. And I I called our lawyer, to ask how do you dissolve a company. I messaged a few mentors saying, like, I... One, people that have been through it, and I said, you know, what what are the steps to to do this? And then I I I had a conversation on the way out with that that team member that wanted to leave, and I said, you know, I understand. But but what if the app actually starts charting on the App Store? And I... He just said, what are the chances of that? You know, it's it's... You know you know that's not gonna happen. And I said, sure. Okay. So we we launched this this app, and it was, you know, a polling app, TBH, and it immediately, took off in the school that we seeded it into, in in Georgia. We picked the one school that had the earliest start date in The United States because we needed to launch as soon as possible given the state of the company. And it just... I think it spread to, you know, 40% of the school downloaded it in the first 24, and it rapidly spread to the neighboring schools. And suddenly, was like, oh, we might have something here. And servers started crashing and watching it climb the charts. I I think within...
00:21:43 · Nikita Bier
I I I looked at our numbers and I'm like, we will be number one in The United States in, like, six days. And then I I looked at our Amazon bill, and it was, like, 120,000. I looked at our bank account. It said 150,000. I'm like, okay. These two numbers don't really, add up. So I I quickly had to put together a funding round, and I told our... My team, can you guys just pause for, like, two months and just, like, really focus on this? I think I could probably sell this thing. And so it turned into a a pretty, competitive bidding process, actually. There there was a really, really great moment where there was... One of the acquirers, that... Or one of the bidders was based in LA had told me to fly down, and they told me to fly down that day. So I got on a plane, went to the airport without a ticket, showed up. And when we were rolling out this app, we were doing a state by state rollout strategy where every state was geofenced. And we hadn't launched California until that morning. And I arrived, at this, this company and, this founder in LA's house, and he said, you know, show me the metrics. You guys are like, what, number four or something? And since we just launched California, it's a big state, I said, no. No. No. We're actually number one. We're the number one app in The United States. And I said, yeah. Show me the metrics. And our CTO was a published author... Eric Hazard is a published author in mapping. And so he he created an amazing dashboard that could show real time installs on a map. And it was around 4PM and school had just gotten out. So I zoomed in on the block that we were having that meeting, and the entire block was lit up with installs all around us. And so then that's what got the kind of, the ball rolling on a, you know, it was a it was a really really select cinematic moment of, you know, what... Showing something that you created that literally just took over the entire neighborhood around you.
00:24:02 · Lenny Rachitsky, Nikita Bier
[00:24:02] S1: That's insane. I I... That's gonna be in the movie of Nikita Bier in the future. Okay. So a couple questions here. So one, you predicted the chart, you would hit number one. How do you... What does it take to hit number one? Like, what is the number you're looking at? Is it some number downloads to get to number one in the App Store? [00:24:16] S0: It fluctuates. It used to be, like, like a 100 thou... 80 to a 100,000 installs, but now you have these companies that are just spending extraordinary amounts on ads and or injecting it into one of their other apps. So between threads, team moo, and all these other apps that are, kind of, spending on acquisition and all that, some days it's up to, like, 300,000. [00:24:40] S1: And that's per day? Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. Amazing. Okay. [00:24:43] S0: At the peak of TBH, we were getting 360,000 per day. [00:24:49] S1: Okay. The other two things I wanna spend a little time on here before we move on to the next step is, what was the insight that helped you come up with this is a big idea that we should try? And then what was the insight into how to spread this so virally? And I I know that one is really clever.