00:41:34 · Dylan Field, John Coogan, Immad Akhund
[00:41:34] S6: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that basically, folks are in a place where they learn by comparative cases. And Sure. The more that they see great examples next to sort of output that's not as good and they can learn why, that's ultimately where you see folks then push further. And, you know, they can then take it on to to do more in area and evolve their skills and their judgment and their their sort of taste or not. But I I do think it's really important to have those conversational loops going, and also, get your arms around as a design leader, what is happening in your organization? Because what we're seeing is more people prototype things, and then, you know, there's, like, this latent fear of, oh, no. What are we gonna ship? And is it the thing that is sort of like a random exploration that someone thought was real, or is it something that is, like, gone through our cycle and is ready to go and is, like, very well thought out? And in general, the other thing that I'd mention is it feels like there's a lot of tunnel vision right now. Mhmm. You know, I I think that there's certain models that kind of went, oh, let's learn from four o And Mhmm. You know, are sort of sycophantic. And doing that in especially for engineers and get very latched onto an idea, and then it's kind of like the AI psychosis sets in, and you're like, this is the best idea ever, and you're fully tunnel vision towards creating it. And you can show massive progress, but, like, are you going the right direction? [00:43:12] S0: Yeah. [00:43:12] S5: And I
00:43:12 · Immad Akhund, Dylan Field, John Coogan
[00:43:12] S5: And I [00:43:12] S6: think it's really important to steer and to actually be building what you need to build and to think, not just wear a thinking cap. So that is something that I think is critical right now. [00:43:24] S0: Yeah. I completely agree. Yeah. There's been a bunch of great takes about that. Help me if I meet someone and they and they have the next great app idea and help me pitch them starting with Figma as the front door to the experience. If they're a nondesigner but they're also nontechnical and they're hearing about Codex and ClaudeCode and those like cogen tools versus starting with a design, starting and having the design be the place where the idea person sort of instantiates their their app or their product. And then, yes, there are agents and they might use different tools for, you know, spinning up back ends and doing other things. Why should Figma be the front door to building? [00:44:13] S6: Yeah. I think that as you're exploring an idea, part of it is thinking it through Mhmm. And actually understanding what is it that I wanna build. And you should not just start in a Figma. You should go talk to users. You should go think about, like, what is it that I'm trying to build? What are my goals and the problems I'm trying to solve? Yeah. So that might look like starting a sketchbook or a doc Yeah. Or in live conversation. [00:44:37] S0: I think there's a lot of people that have not asked that question to the LLMs and jump straight to, oh, I spent seven nights staying up all night. I'm cutting this thing and
00:44:37 · John Coogan, Dylan Field
[00:44:37] S0: I think there's a lot of people that have not asked that question to the LLMs and jump straight to, oh, I spent seven nights staying up all night. I'm cutting this thing and [00:44:48] S6: earning for a It's fun. It's addictive. Inner's box effect of like Yeah. Will it Right this time or not? Yeah. [00:44:54] S0: Variable reward. [00:44:56] S6: Yeah. Variable reward. Box. And so but then I think going from there to be intentional about, okay. I know what problems I'm trying to solve. Let me think through the solution. Figma provides an excellent spot to do that with Mhmm. In conjunction with, you know, brainstorming tools like FigJam Yeah. Or, you know, document editing. [00:45:13] S0: Yeah. [00:45:14] S6: Spec editing. And from there, I think when you've got your direction, you know what you wanna build, it's a great time to use our MCP. Go bring into code or go bring into Make. Yeah. And Make itself, I well, you'll see a ton of evolution on Surface ahead. We've already had a lot that we've improved, and you'll see even more in the weeks and months coming. And then I think that's a great spot where you can go back and forth because sometimes as you build it out, you realize that actually there's more to explore and define on the design side. Yeah. So use the best tool for the job, but I think don't be tunnel vision about there's one direction and that's the only thing that can work. That's where you'll fall into traps.
00:45:14 · Dylan Field, John Coogan, Jordi Hays
[00:45:14] S6: Spec editing. And from there, I think when you've got your direction, you know what you wanna build, it's a great time to use our MCP. Go bring into code or go bring into Make. Yeah. And Make itself, I well, you'll see a ton of evolution on Surface ahead. We've already had a lot that we've improved, and you'll see even more in the weeks and months coming. And then I think that's a great spot where you can go back and forth because sometimes as you build it out, you realize that actually there's more to explore and define on the design side. Yeah. So use the best tool for the job, but I think don't be tunnel vision about there's one direction and that's the only thing that can work. That's where you'll fall into traps. [00:45:57] S0: Yeah. Last question for me. Huge revenue growth, massive success in the financial side. I'm interested in going a click deeper and trying to understand what is working the most because it seems like there's great retention among big clients and customers that are using Figma at scale across a huge organization. There's also new entrepreneurs that are a team of one, and they might be using Figma. There's Yeah. It's notable. It's notable that the heaviest cases [00:46:28] S1: The heaviest users of of coding agents are heavily using Figma Yeah. Because they're making more software.
00:46:28 · Jordi Hays, John Coogan
[00:46:28] S1: The heaviest users of of coding agents are heavily using Figma Yeah. Because they're making more software. [00:46:37] S0: And they need to add stuff to it. I mean, I look at some of the stuff we've vibe coded, and I'm like, okay. Like, we it's time to level up and have Figma in the flow if it's not already. Even because you don't want some even like the dashboards, like, things need to be designed at some point. They need as they grow and scale. The the the the first, like, most basic thing, it could just be a CLI. But as soon as we start building UIs and multiple users, like, it gets more complicated. But but what is driving the growth? Is it both? Is one more of an opportunity for you over the next few years? Like, what are you most excited about?
00:46:37 · John Coogan, Dylan Field
[00:46:37] S0: And they need to add stuff to it. I mean, I look at some of the stuff we've vibe coded, and I'm like, okay. Like, we it's time to level up and have Figma in the flow if it's not already. Even because you don't want some even like the dashboards, like, things need to be designed at some point. They need as they grow and scale. The the the the first, like, most basic thing, it could just be a CLI. But as soon as we start building UIs and multiple users, like, it gets more complicated. But but what is driving the growth? Is it both? Is one more of an opportunity for you over the next few years? Like, what are you most excited about? [00:47:09] S6: I mean, I think we're seeing growth kind of across the board right now, and we're very thankful for that. But our eyes are always in the future. And, you know, the same things that I've said when I've been here in the past and, you know, I think have become their own memes around design being the differentiator and design as the layer above code as code commoditizes more and more. Design is, I think, increasingly the battleground. This is where everyone is going to really duke it out to figure out what the direction is that they should explore and what they should go build. And we need to build for that world, a world where design representations, code representations can live together, and a world where, you know, you don't have to make these false trade offs between direct manipulation and AI or, you know, being able to explore broadly or make fast progress. [00:48:05] S0: Like Yeah.