00:06:35 · Luca Ferrari, Roman Kirsch
[00:06:35] S2: No. Matteo is an incredibly talented person. A soul mate for me if you can have one but a truly amazing person. A very talented, creative, logical, an unusual combination both the analytical part and the more imaginative part. So [00:06:54] S0: I didn't expect this to go down the route of relationship advice, right? But you seem like you're almost in a honeymoon phase fifteen years in, right? So how do you keep this energy dynamics that fresh? How do you guys reinvent yourselves and how do you also split up your time, your responsibilities? [00:07:16] S2: I think you... It's mostly the result of being picky when it comes to the people you associate with. So it's more work up front, being selective. And then the second part is investing in yourself and the relationship. I think that's actually probably true for a romantic relationship too, by the way. So being self critical, trying to develop candor so that you point out things that don't work early and then you don't get offended by that criticism but work on it. It's not that it's all perfect, but do think we get along today as well as we ever have. Like, it's truly been... I mean, I guess it's also raised a little bit in time, but upwards certainly for for now almost twenty years.
00:07:16 · Luca Ferrari, Matteo Danieli
[00:07:16] S2: I think you... It's mostly the result of being picky when it comes to the people you associate with. So it's more work up front, being selective. And then the second part is investing in yourself and the relationship. I think that's actually probably true for a romantic relationship too, by the way. So being self critical, trying to develop candor so that you point out things that don't work early and then you don't get offended by that criticism but work on it. It's not that it's all perfect, but do think we get along today as well as we ever have. Like, it's truly been... I mean, I guess it's also raised a little bit in time, but upwards certainly for for now almost twenty years. [00:08:06] S1: It's also a matter of self selection. Right? Some cofounders come together because they wanna work on a product, and so they're looking for someone who shared that experience. But for us, it was kind of the opposite. Like, we we both knew that we wanted to build our own thing, but I think it was... You know, it started from a friendship and then it morphed into a business relationship. So, you know, all the part about making sure that you're aligned when it comes to character and values was kind of, you know, checked at the very beginning. And I think that made for a much stronger foundation to build on.
00:08:06 · Matteo Danieli, Roman Kirsch
[00:08:06] S1: It's also a matter of self selection. Right? Some cofounders come together because they wanna work on a product, and so they're looking for someone who shared that experience. But for us, it was kind of the opposite. Like, we we both knew that we wanted to build our own thing, but I think it was... You know, it started from a friendship and then it morphed into a business relationship. So, you know, all the part about making sure that you're aligned when it comes to character and values was kind of, you know, checked at the very beginning. And I think that made for a much stronger foundation to build on. [00:08:39] S0: Amazing. Was... Take me back to that exact moment or to the room where you kind of looked each other into the eyes and said, okay, we're going to start something together. Because I remember from my first time it was magical on the Skype call and then everyone said, I'm in, let's do this. And how did it work for you? Like was that a process or was that a specific moment where you Let's do it?
00:09:00 · Matteo Danieli
[00:09:00] S1: Look, it embarrasses me a little bit to think back about those times because in any way it's also sweet, but we were so naive. We didn't know anything about business, about tech even. We just had this very strong desire to build something together. So that's where it started. We didn't have mentors. We didn't have advisors. Copenhagen, which is where we started our first company, had a quite vibrant startup scene, we hadn't entered it quite yet. So it was us with the idea that we kind of liked each other, we wanted to do something together. We had this dream that we shared that we wanted to create our own company. And then it was more like we were fishing for ideas to support that dream. So the way it actually played out was that we had maybe two or three ideas on the table that we were discussing. Of course, we knew that it would be better if we did something with mobile or web because the barriers to entry would be lower. And honestly, think that the reason why we went for one project rather than another is because I was slightly more persuasive in bringing them on my side rather than because that idea deserved a lot. So yeah, that's how it happened. Didn't do any market research or user research, and we honestly didn't know a lot of the things that we've learned about human psychology and what it is that makes products succeed. But we were very determined. So even out of that idea Almost unstoppable, I would
00:10:38 · Luca Ferrari, Roman Kirsch
[00:10:38] S2: say, which is next level. Literally the mindset was, we'll keep going unless they shoot us down with a bazooka, literally. I don't think we ever expressed it, but the level of commitment was absolute, which I wouldn't say it's necessary to build a successful company, but almost. It's very rare that you can do that without [00:11:02] S0: having to And that's probably what kept you going afterwards because, you know, I mean, what happened to your first company, you mentioned already with Avatale, kind of is what happens to over 90% of companies that they for some reason don't work out. And that's where a lot of those stories end, right? But probably this belief, hey, bazooka belief, as you said, this is what kept you going, right? So I think maybe you could walk us through the moment when you said, hey, it didn't work out in the first step, but let's just keep going. Was that even a discussion or was it natural for you?
00:11:36 · Luca Ferrari, Roman Kirsch
[00:11:36] S2: I think it was natural and I will say the resolve was probably more important to go through the long failure of EverTail than to start Bending Spoons. I feel that we really saw being entrepreneurs, engineers, managers as a craft we wanted to master. And like a sculpture or someone who's trying to become a sculpture, a sculptor, and you probably produce pretty shitty sculptures initially and you have a vision but you come well short of that vision because your skills are not there yet. If you're passionate about the craft, then when you fail your next sculpture, you probably can't wait to try again because now you know you can do it better. And I think EverTale, this startup failing, was liberating in many ways because we could finally stop firefighting or trying to resurrect something that had no legs and start afresh with hopefully a better, more successful vision, better practices. And so I, not that we didn't have our fair share of emotional breakdowns or whatnot, because it was tough. It was, we had spent three plus years working essentially every waking hour to make it happen. So it's not easy to say, okay, we've still, we failed miserably. But it was a strong desire to try again and deploy all the lessons learned. [00:13:09] S0: So were there any doubts or concerns at this point in time or? [00:13:13] S2: Not about trying to gain. I do not remember even discussing, hey, should we maybe apply to go work at Google instead? Like, I do not remember a single conversation like that.